Freethought & Rationalism Archive

HumanisTim · 07-31-2002, 05:20 AM

Let's pretend it was possible to prove the non existance of God 100%. In fact imagine its so strong even the biggest fundie couldn't deny it. Lets suppose that you cane across this proof.

Would you share it with the world or would you think it best to keep to yourself. Me personally I would keep it to myself. Why?, because I think theres alot of people whos lives would fall apart without their god belief. I'd bet that you'd have alot of suicides from people who were extremly distraught. I admit it would be tempting to tell people to end stuff like religous wars. But then people would find new reasons to fight wars.

Koyaanisqatsi · 07-31-2002, 05:35 AM

So you're saying it is better to lie to people instead of telling them the truth?

If so, here's a follow up. Wouldn't it be logical to assume--considering that the world is 90% theist, if memory serves from the latest "poll"--that the world is in the state it is in precisely because of that 90% has been living a lie for centuries?

In other words, the problems you allude to and then contend religion helps alleviate, were arguably caused by 90% of the world living a lie, yes?

Tom Sawyer · 07-31-2002, 06:35 AM

What you could do is keep this great truth that you have to yourself and only a few select people. You could then talk about the fact that you know the truth, but don't tell people what it is. People could come to you to learn this secret knowledge and when they've proved themselves worthy to you, then you let them in on the hidden knowledge. Meanwhile, they can pray to you and give you their women and money while they wait to learn the great truth that only you, as the Great Leader, can tell them.

The world has a lack of good atheist cults and definitely needs more. Why should the theists be the only ones who get to have people worship them? It's just not fair.

HumanisTim · 07-31-2002, 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi:
<strong>So you're saying it is better to lie to people instead of telling them the truth?

If so, here's a follow up. Wouldn't it be logical to assume--considering that the world is 90% theist, if memory serves from the latest "poll"--that the world is in the state it is in precisely because of that 90% has been living a lie for centuries?

In other words, the problems you allude to and then contend religion helps alleviate, were arguably caused by 90% of the world living a lie, yes?</strong>

Good point. I guess it would be harder to decide. If you did release such a thing to the world. Do you think it would have more of a positive or negative impact.

sandlewood · 07-31-2002, 08:33 AM

I�m not sure how you could prove the non-existence of God any more than you can now, since there is 0% evidence now. I think we�ve already got 100% proof of the non-existence of God. But anyway, let�s say you could prove it mathematically or something. I think people still wouldn�t believe your proof. They would just see it as a test of their faith. They would ignore all proofs. So I don�t think revealing your proof would change anything. I would reveal the proof whether it did or not, though, simply because it is the truth.

However, having said that, if I had learned of a race of friendly aliens that actually existed, would I tell people? Perhaps not, just to protect the aliens. So I might lie about that. And if the aliens asked me if it was a good idea to reveal themselves to humans and come to Earth, I�d have to tell them no even though I�d much rather tell them yes. I tell them to wait about 500 years and then see how things go.

banditoloco · 07-31-2002, 08:37 AM

Quote:

So you're saying it is better to lie to people instead of telling them the truth?
If so, here's a follow up. Wouldn't it be logical to assume--considering that the world is 90% theist, if memory serves from the latest "poll"--that the world is in the state it is in precisely because of that 90% has been living a lie for centuries?

In other words, the problems you allude to and then contend religion helps alleviate, were arguably caused by 90% of the world living a lie, yes?

Many of the problems in the world today certainly do have their original causes in religion, but have been going on for so long that the sudden revelation that there is no god may not encourage people to "forgive and forget."

Take the situations between Israel and Palestine, or India and Pakistan, for example. These conflicts clearly have their roots in religious differences, but if god did not exist, Palestine would still want a home land, and India and Pakistan would still both want Kashmir.

I do believe that in the long run, it would be better for people to know the truth, but it would be best to let people know the truth gradually.

Koyaanisqatsi · 07-31-2002, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by banditoloco:
<strong>I do believe that in the long run, it would be better for people to know the truth, but it would be best to let people know the truth gradually.</strong>

Gradually, as in, another two to five thousand years?

Jobar · 07-31-2002, 11:20 AM

IMO, if people can go through the experiences of 9/11/01 and still believe, no amount of proof will ever change their minds. They would rationalize or flat-out deny it, regardless of the solidity of your proof.

I have some hope that, as humanity matures (we are actually a very young species), we will outgrow our superstitions, as a child will eventually outgrow Santa Claus. Only time will tell if I'm right.

This needs to go in MRD, I think.

Theli · 07-31-2002, 11:39 AM

Tim...

Quote:

Me personally I would keep it to myself. Why?, because I think theres alot of people whos lives would fall apart without their god belief.

This is a good question.
If we agree that alot of people are deeply dependent, on the brink of obsession when it comes to their god(s).
Wouldn't not showing them the proof, doom their offspring to have the same obsession and dependence?
Perhaps even worse.

I think wars are the least of factors. Although inplanting some doubts in the fundies minds might lighten them up abit.

Koyaanisqatsi · 08-01-2002, 07:05 AM

I fully agree that wars are the least of the problems with cult mentality, which should be the most revelatory aspect and the primary motivation for everyone awake to eradicate such mentality as vigorously as it was instituted (short of inquisitions, of course; only holy men can torture and murder people without compunction).

Just do a one for one comparison: 90% of the populus living the lie = Society's status quo.

07-31-2002, 05:20 AM	#1
HumanisTim Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Reading,PA Posts: 233	Hypothetical Question Let's pretend it was possible to prove the non existance of God 100%. In fact imagine its so strong even the biggest fundie couldn't deny it. Lets suppose that you cane across this proof. Would you share it with the world or would you think it best to keep to yourself. Me personally I would keep it to myself. Why?, because I think theres alot of people whos lives would fall apart without their god belief. I'd bet that you'd have alot of suicides from people who were extremly distraught. I admit it would be tempting to tell people to end stuff like religous wars. But then people would find new reasons to fight wars.

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07-31-2002, 05:35 AM	#2
Koyaanisqatsi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Yes, I have dyslexia. Sue me. Posts: 6,508	So you're saying it is better to lie to people instead of telling them the truth? If so, here's a follow up. Wouldn't it be logical to assume--considering that the world is 90% theist, if memory serves from the latest "poll"--that the world is in the state it is in precisely because of that 90% has been living a lie for centuries? In other words, the problems you allude to and then contend religion helps alleviate, were arguably caused by 90% of the world living a lie, yes?

07-31-2002, 06:35 AM	#3
Tom Sawyer Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Toronto, eh Posts: 42,293	What you could do is keep this great truth that you have to yourself and only a few select people. You could then talk about the fact that you know the truth, but don't tell people what it is. People could come to you to learn this secret knowledge and when they've proved themselves worthy to you, then you let them in on the hidden knowledge. Meanwhile, they can pray to you and give you their women and money while they wait to learn the great truth that only you, as the Great Leader, can tell them. The world has a lack of good atheist cults and definitely needs more. Why should the theists be the only ones who get to have people worship them? It's just not fair.

07-31-2002, 08:33 AM	#5
sandlewood Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: San Jose, CA, USA Posts: 264	I�m not sure how you could prove the non-existence of God any more than you can now, since there is 0% evidence now. I think we�ve already got 100% proof of the non-existence of God. But anyway, let�s say you could prove it mathematically or something. I think people still wouldn�t believe your proof. They would just see it as a test of their faith. They would ignore all proofs. So I don�t think revealing your proof would change anything. I would reveal the proof whether it did or not, though, simply because it is the truth. However, having said that, if I had learned of a race of friendly aliens that actually existed, would I tell people? Perhaps not, just to protect the aliens. So I might lie about that. And if the aliens asked me if it was a good idea to reveal themselves to humans and come to Earth, I�d have to tell them no even though I�d much rather tell them yes. I tell them to wait about 500 years and then see how things go.

07-31-2002, 11:20 AM	#8
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	IMO, if people can go through the experiences of 9/11/01 and still believe, no amount of proof will ever change their minds. They would rationalize or flat-out deny it, regardless of the solidity of your proof. I have some hope that, as humanity matures (we are actually a very young species), we will outgrow our superstitions, as a child will eventually outgrow Santa Claus. Only time will tell if I'm right. This needs to go in MRD, I think.

08-01-2002, 07:05 AM	#10
Koyaanisqatsi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Yes, I have dyslexia. Sue me. Posts: 6,508	I fully agree that wars are the least of the problems with cult mentality, which should be the most revelatory aspect and the primary motivation for everyone awake to eradicate such mentality as vigorously as it was instituted (short of inquisitions, of course; only holy men can torture and murder people without compunction). Just do a one for one comparison: 90% of the populus living the lie = Society's status quo.

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