Ted Hoffman

In a recent thread, Kirby asserted that the argument that Isaiah 7:14 is a messianic prophecy is without foundation - among other things.
I will start by arguing that Isaiah 7:14 is indeed a Messianic Prophecy. The significance of this is that it will support the idea that Paul, in Galatians 4:4 is alluding to this messianic prophecy and hence the idea that Paul did not speak of Jesus as a historical person but as a mythical saviour figure.

I will appreciate any comments.
Does Isaiah speak of a virgin giving birth or of a young woman giving birth?
Isaiah 7:14 reads:
RSV
The hebrew word Alma is used and it refers to a virgin young, unmarried woman. As its used in Gen 24:43 and in Song of Solomon 1:3,6:8 as opposed to Betulah in Gen 24:16. Betulah can be a young unmarried woman as used in Joel 1:8.
In Greek septuagint, the word Parthenos (virgin is used) in Isaiah 7:14.

Does any other scripture refer to Isaiah 7:14 as a messianic prophecy
Yes. Matthew and Luke. And Matthew even goes further to quote the passage almost verbatim:
Matthew 1:21-25:
It can also be argued quite validly that Luke 1:26-35 alludes to Isaiah 7:14. But it will not be necessary for me to prove that because the verses from Matthew above support the argument that Isaiah 7:14 is considered as a messianic prophecy, at least by the person that wrote Matthew.
Was Paul aware of the messianic prophecy about a virgin birth?
Yes, indeed, Paul demonstrated his knowledge of the scriptures which he kept mentioning as he addressed his audience in Corinth and elsewhere. But first, lets examine what Paul wrote.
Galatians 4:4
RSV, emphasis mine.
Paul, like Isaiah, does not mention the womans name or give the "son" and "sent" any spatial or temporal dimension. Indeed, even as he strains for an allegory between the birth of Isaac (who was supposed to be sacrificed) and Jesus, he never gets round to mention the name Mary.
Doherty refers to Burton Mack's Galatians, p.216f, who states that Paul, instead of using the Greek word gennao, to give birth, Paul uses the word form ginomai which has a broader meaning of "to become or come into existence". Doherty argues further that Paul did not base "born of woman" on historical knowledge but on the source he uses for everything he says aboyt the son: Hebrew scriptures - Isaiah 7:14.
Further to this, its clear that other mythical figures like Dionysos, were too born of women (specifically, Dionysos' mother was Semele and his father was Zeus).

If necessary, I shall proceed to argue further that in Romans 1:3-4, kata sarka meant in the sphere of the flesh. And further to that, demonstrate the "sphere" concept is consistent with the multi-layered "topology" of the cosmos as understood by middle platonists in the 1st century Palestine/Judea.

By the way, the Talmud too, treats Isaiah 7:14 as a Messianic Prophecy

Jayhawker Soule

This seems more than adequately addressed by Kenneth E. Nahigian's A Virgin-Birth Prophecy?.

Celsus

Also, Richard Carrier's essay The Problem of the Virgin Birth Prophecy is just up, also dealing with this.

Hawkingfan

I'm not sure if it is messianic prophecy or not. But it doesn't quite seem 100% accurate. The prophecy was bold enough to say the persons name ("his name shall be called Immanuel"), but in Matthew it says "you shall call his name Jesus". I may be wrong, but I don't think Jesus=Immanuel, does it? I can't seem to remember anywhere in the bible where Jesus was called "Immanuel" by anyone, even his parents, disciples, or god.

Ted Hoffman

Thanks CA. The author argues that the word Alma doesnt mean a virgin. Greek translations ALL translate it as Virgin.
It may be the case that strictly speaking, Alma doesnt mean virgin but young woman.
But my argument is that early christians (Paul included) DID understand Isaiah to have meant a virgin and used the passage as a messianic prophecy.

That is the crux of my argument: how it was regarded by them - NOT how we should treat it.

Matthew 1's case for example, undisputably treated it as a messianic prophecy.

Magus55

http://www.carm.org/questions/jesus_name.htm

Jack the Bodiless

...An article which, as usual, entirely fails to address the issue.

Where else in the NT is Jesus referred to by any such title or phrase?

Nowhere.

Ted Hoffman

Magus55 that was beautiful thank you.

keyser_soze

That link Magus....was both underwhelming, and uninformative at the same time. You have outdone yourself. Perhaps we could assume that someone was trying to make the prophecy FIT reality, and only got so far as to change the names out on the verse, without realizing that he was illiterate and it was supposed to be immanuel?

Jayhawker Soule

Treated: as in fabricated. Best I can tell, Matthew never allowed his deficient understanding of the Tanach to impede his creativity.