Freethought & Rationalism Archive

trebor · 03-04-2002, 06:24 PM

While posting on another topic in the forum, I became acutely aware that some people assumed I held church/state separation from the oft-met-with "fundamentalist" perspective. This may be the most visible Baptist position today, but it is certainly not the original one. I thought some of you might be interested in material from John Leland, possibly one of the most influential Baptist ministers for freedom of religion in the revolutionary period. These quotes are mainly for historical purposes, but realize that a number of present-day Baptists agree with the "Leland", rather than the "fundamentalist", position.

Quote:

A general assessment, (forcing all to pay some preacher,) amounts to an establishment; if government says I must pay somebody, it must next describe that somebody, his doctrine and place of abode...Every man must give account of himself to God, and therefore every man ought to be at liberty to serve God in a way that he can best reconcile to his conscience. If government can answer for individuals at the day of judgment, let men be controlled by it in religious matters; otherwise, let men be free...All the good they (test oaths) do is to keep from office the best of men; villains make no scruple of any test. The Virginia Constitution is free from this stain. If a man merits the confidence of his neighbors in Virginia -- let him worship one God, twenty Gods, or no God -- be he Jew, Turk, Pagan, or Infidel, he is eligible to any office in the State...If legislatures choose to have a chaplain, for Heaven's sake, let them pay him by contributions, and not out of the public chest.

On Jefferson and Madison:

Quote:

Pardon me, my hearers, if I am over-warm. I lived in Virginia fourteen years. The beneficent influence of my hero was too generally felt to leave me a stoic. What may we expect, under the auspices of heaven, while Jefferson presides, with Madison in state at his side?

The author also says:

Quote:

He (Leland) believed that legislators were led into the error of attempting to legislate religion by confounding sins with crimes. His thinking was that there is a difference between moral evil and state rebellion. One might be infested with moral evil, and yet be guilty of no crime, punishable by law. Thus, he could believe that government "has no more to do with religious opinions than it has to do with the principles of mathematics." But, he said, when those principles break out into overt acts of violence, then magistrates "use the civil sword and punish the vagrant for what he has done, not for the religious phrenzy that he acted from."

I don't expect there to be general sentiment for Leland's religious position, but just wanted to present a different Baptist perspective from the one more vocal in our society today. The full article (with footnotes) may be found at <a href="http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/2502/leland.html" target="_blank">www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/2502/leland.html</a>. The author is Emerson Proctor. I could find no direct information on him, but think he may be associated with Mercer University in Macon, GA.

[ March 04, 2002: Message edited by: trebor ]</p>

Oresta · 03-05-2002, 04:17 AM

Interesting cites, trebor. Here in Detroit, Second Baptist ministers were strongly opposed to vouchers and actively campaigned against the referendum. The Catholic Archdiocese spent $700,000 in support. The referendum was defeated, 2 to 1.

ohwilleke · 03-05-2002, 09:50 AM

Many modern Baptist denominations still make separation of church and state an important doctrine. But, many modern Baptists would also differ on what constitutes separation of church and state. For instance, many Baptists would argue that formal recognition of the existence of God by government does not constitute government establishment of religion.

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03-05-2002, 04:17 AM	#2
Oresta Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Detroit, MI Posts: 1,107	Interesting cites, trebor. Here in Detroit, Second Baptist ministers were strongly opposed to vouchers and actively campaigned against the referendum. The Catholic Archdiocese spent $700,000 in support. The referendum was defeated, 2 to 1.

03-05-2002, 09:50 AM	#3
ohwilleke Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Denver, Colorado, USA Posts: 4,834	Many modern Baptist denominations still make separation of church and state an important doctrine. But, many modern Baptists would also differ on what constitutes separation of church and state. For instance, many Baptists would argue that formal recognition of the existence of God by government does not constitute government establishment of religion.

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