Freethought & Rationalism Archive

emotional · 08-09-2003, 02:48 PM

Satan is the Christian or Islamic god. I mean, how else can it be when the said gods prepare an eternal chamber of sadistic torture for the majority of mankind?

Magus55 · 08-09-2003, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by emotional
Satan is the Christian or Islamic god. I mean, how else can it be when the said gods prepare an eternal chamber of sadistic torture for the majority of mankind?

He didn't create for mankind, He created it for Satan and the angels, but through sin and disobeyal, humans made their way to Hell too.

Demigawd · 08-09-2003, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
He didn't create for mankind, He created it for Satan and the angels, but through sin and disobeyal, humans made their way to Hell too.

[Dr Evil]Right...[/Dr Evil]. As we all know, humans, as a majority, have a masochistic desire to be tortured for all eternity. Therefore, we, complete with an innate knowledge there is God and He requires us to kiss His Holy Ass (tm) through blind obediance, wish instead to fornicate homosexually and wear clothing made of multiple fibers.

winstonjen · 08-10-2003, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by emotional
Satan is the Christian or Islamic god. I mean, how else can it be when the said gods prepare an eternal chamber of sadistic torture for the majority of mankind?

You're being far too kind.

Hedshaker · 08-10-2003, 02:39 AM

Oh dear! The dilema grows. God (being omni -whatsname) creates evil knowing that one of his foot soldiers will lead a mutiny so that he (God) can play games with his creation?

Me thinks not! Infact, that sounds like a rather scheming god. Bible or no bible I'm having none of it

This leaves 2 alternatives that theists should consider (well three, but they seem unable to comprehend the third.)

1) Satan was here first. Satan is the real creator and God is trying to move in on his turf.

2) Satan and God are one and the same. Yin yang, as it were.

Both of those explinations are more plausible than the fallen angel, who may or may not have had free will, story. And neither require that you give up your faith in God or Satan.

Of course there's always option 3 but that would require a suspension of belief, or, as I like to put it, a return to reality.

Peace.

bya

Alan N · 08-10-2003, 04:44 AM

So if free will exists in heaven, which it must have for Satan to have fallen from it, what potential does this hold for the believer, who rests assured that heaven is their final and permanent address? Doesn't bode well for them.

BYA, I'm kind of with you regarding 'Satan is God', or at least part of him. The dialog in the beginning of Job sounds very close to this, almost as if he's talking to himself...as if there is a 'holy council of God', comprised of Satan, Jesus, God (others?). Perhaps this is the real trinity. Satan does �rove about the earth", and the holy spirit's domain is the earth...hmm.

Job 1:10 Have you not made a hedge around him and his house and all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his cattle have increased in the land. 1:11 But extend your hand and strike everything he has, and he will indeed curse you to your face!�

1:12 So the Lord said to Satan, �All right then, everything he has is in your power. Only do not extend your hand against the man himself!� ... emphasis mine

Hedshaker · 08-10-2003, 06:28 AM

Quote:

BYA, I'm kind of with you regarding 'Satan is God', or at least part of him. The dialog in the beginning of Job sounds very close to this, almost as if he's talking to himself...as if there is a 'holy council of God'

Yes, it makes perfect sense. A holy Jekyll & Hyde if you will. That would also explain why God/Satan moves in mysterious ways sometimes since they can only get it right when they're not getting it wrong.

Wyz_sub10 · 08-11-2003, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].

Where's the part about satan being an archangel who rebelled against god?

braces_for_impact · 08-11-2003, 07:40 AM

Isaiah 14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

This is the only place in the bible where Lucifer is mentioned, and is often given as justification for the fall. If one reads clearly however, we find out Lucifer was a MAN.

Isaiah 14:16
They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms

God needed an archenemy, and an excuse for evil in the world.

Alan N · 08-11-2003, 07:41 AM

I think the Revelation passage below is the source of the archangel bit.

2 Cor 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light

Rev 12:8-10
8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven.
9 The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
"Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Christ.
For the accuser of our brothers,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.

Emphasis' mine.

08-10-2003, 04:44 AM	#16
Alan N Junior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 68	Worse for believers So if free will exists in heaven, which it must have for Satan to have fallen from it, what potential does this hold for the believer, who rests assured that heaven is their final and permanent address? Doesn't bode well for them. BYA, I'm kind of with you regarding 'Satan is God', or at least part of him. The dialog in the beginning of Job sounds very close to this, almost as if he's talking to himself...as if there is a 'holy council of God', comprised of Satan, Jesus, God (others?). Perhaps this is the real trinity. Satan does �rove about the earth", and the holy spirit's domain is the earth...hmm. Job 1:10 Have you not made a hedge around him and his house and all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his cattle have increased in the land. 1:11 But extend your hand and strike everything he has, and he will indeed curse you to your face!� 1:12 So the Lord said to Satan, �All right then, everything he has is in your power. Only do not extend your hand against the man himself!� ... emphasis mine

08-11-2003, 07:41 AM	#20
Alan N Junior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 68	to Wyz_sub10 I think the Revelation passage below is the source of the archangel bit. 2 Cor 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light Rev 12:8-10 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down. Emphasis' mine.

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08-09-2003, 02:48 PM	#11
emotional Banned Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Boxing ring of HaShem, Jesus and Allah Posts: 1,945	Satan is the Christian or Islamic god. I mean, how else can it be when the said gods prepare an eternal chamber of sadistic torture for the majority of mankind?

08-10-2003, 02:39 AM	#15
Hedshaker Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: https://soundcloud.com/dark-blue-man Posts: 3,526	Oh dear! The dilema grows. God (being omni -whatsname) creates evil knowing that one of his foot soldiers will lead a mutiny so that he (God) can play games with his creation? Me thinks not! Infact, that sounds like a rather scheming god. Bible or no bible I'm having none of it This leaves 2 alternatives that theists should consider (well three, but they seem unable to comprehend the third.) 1) Satan was here first. Satan is the real creator and God is trying to move in on his turf. 2) Satan and God are one and the same. Yin yang, as it were. Both of those explinations are more plausible than the fallen angel, who may or may not have had free will, story. And neither require that you give up your faith in God or Satan. Of course there's always option 3 but that would require a suspension of belief, or, as I like to put it, a return to reality. Peace. bya

08-11-2003, 07:40 AM	#19
braces_for_impact Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In a nondescript, black helicopter. Posts: 6,637	Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! This is the only place in the bible where Lucifer is mentioned, and is often given as justification for the fall. If one reads clearly however, we find out Lucifer was a MAN. Isaiah 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms God needed an archenemy, and an excuse for evil in the world.

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