Wyrdsmyth

...Sometime, somewhere, people believed in a rain god. And they said to the one guy who didn't believe in the rain god:

"Okay, let's have a debate. We will see which of our worldviews is superior."

The priests of the rain god set up the debate so they were on one side and the guy who didn't believe in the rain god was on the other side. Both sides were to defend their "positive" claims of how the world works. Whoever had the better explanation would be considered the winner. The debate focused on the question: Where does the rain come from? The priests answered first and spoke at some length about the old legends of how the gods created the world and there was a god who governed each aspect of the world. They told old stories about how the gods interacted with their ancestors long ago, and performed miracles and spoke to men, and gave men knowledge. And, of course, the concluding statement was that rain came from the rain god, just as fire came from the fire god, and jaguars were created by jaguar god. Everyone at the debate then turned to the one who didn't believe in the rain god to hear what he had to say about where rain came from.

"I don't know," he said, simply.

What an anti-climax! After the long and colorful speech of the charismatic priests, the lone unbeliever spoke in a trembling voice, and didn't even have an explanation of his own!

"Hah!" the priests of the rain god said. "Our explanation is superior to yours! At least we have an answer!"

The priests of the rain god were judged the winners of the debate.

[ February 02, 2002: Message edited by: Wyrdsmyth ]</p>

lpetrich

Rain only falls when there are thick clouds, so why does a rain god only produce rain only when there are thick clouds around?

Thus, it's natural to conclude that rain comes from thick clouds, and that a rain god, if there is one, needs such clouds to work with. Might it not be simpler to dispense with the rain god and suppose that the clouds themselves make the rain?

Also, about the rain-god bit, in Aristophanes's play The Clouds, someone confesses that he had always thought that rain was Zeus pissing through a sieve.

Kat_Somm_Faen

OK, well let me try and answer

But also let me make my point clear. I just LOVE to play devil's advocte. Though an theist I will take on the role of theist.

God works -&gt;through&lt;- the clouds. He does not simply make water ex nihilo. He uses the clouds through which he brings rain. Also, it was his will to have the clouds there in the first place so in the end it is still rain which he made...

I don't think atheists should move toward such arguments to prove/disprove God. After all we say "I made coffee." And we do not presume we materialized a cup of coffee. Rather, we made coffee out of ground coffee beans. This kind of argument can be easily circumvented and ,in my opinion, should be avoided.

THX

saint

Why presuppose the meddling of a god in natural affairs. Why can't an event be what it is, natural? Even if there is a creator god, that created the clouds, that does not mean that he is the one that makes it rain. If you built an engine, are you personally making each of the cylinders fire? No, the cylinders fire on their own (with the help of a little fuel of course). The clouds can be thought of the same way, when there's fuel (enough concentrated moisture) they rain. God does not put the fuel there, natural causes do.

DarkDruid

I think the post had nothing to do with the rain, and instead attempted to illustrate a fallacy.

lpetrich

This reminds me of Philip Gosse's book Omphalos, which proposed that the Universe is only 6000 years ago, as one can calculate from the Bible -- and that it was created with the appearance of much greater age, because that was a natural way for God to create.

However, others have tended to view that theory as one of divine fraudulence.

Which is what the "God makes rain with clouds" hypothesis seems like to me.

And how can we be sure that it isn't Zeus that makes rain?

Wyrdsmyth

This is correct. Evidently the "attempt" wasn't that good, since it isn't obvious what I was trying to illustrate.

MotownMJ

Sometime, somewhere, people put together an internet message board to debate the existence of God...

One person stood up and said "I believe in the existence of a God who created the world and desires to have some form of relationship with humans. I believe this because of a variety of things, including investigating the life of Jesus and my own personal life experiences."

Someone cross-examined this person, however: "But what of human suffering? Why would a God who loved mankind allow cancer and painful death? What of all the contradictions I can point out in the Bible? What is your "heaven" and "hell" like? What is the nature of our "spirits?"

To these and a multitude of other questions, the person honestly answered "I don't know."

"HA!" cried the atheists. "We have science, and theories on the origins of the universe and mankind. We can explain almost everything we observe in purely atheistic terms. We can answer those questions very easily: there IS NO GOD."

And the lone theist on the message board was derided. It was obvious that because he did not have all the answers, he was obviously wrong.

Draygomb

Are you suggesting that rain doesn't come from the Rain God?

Could you prove this?

Mageth

Rain only falls when there are thick clouds, so why does a rain god only produce rain only when there are thick clouds around?

Admittedly pedantic note: not always true. I've been outside when it was so humid that water droplets were condensing and falling as "rain" (like a very heavy dew), even though there were very few clouds and no thick clouds in the sky (it was a relatively sunny day.)

What does this have to do with this thread? Absolutely nothing!