Bobzammel

In the Epistles of Seneca, 4.1(Seneca was a Greek Humanist philosopher) Seneca refers to the "Holy Spirit" in incredibly Christian-like terms. Some Christians have used this as an excuse to state that Seneca was secretly a Christian, in the same fashion they say the devil created all other religions. Another theory is that Seneca was a co-conspirator of Paul's, attempting to compromise the Judaic faith.

Any thoughts?

Eudaimonist

Seneca was a Stoic philosopher, and if anything Christianity stole a little from Stoicism, or its mother, Cynicism. Note that Stoicism and Cynicism predate Christianity by a few centuries.

Of course, the phrase "Holy Spirit" could just be a coincidence.

[ December 17, 2002: Message edited by: Eudaimonist ]</p>

Geoff Hudson

Bobzammel,

I am confused about the reference 4.1 to Seneca's epistle. Could you give me the title of the epistle and perhaps reproduce the reference to the Holy Spirit with some of its surrounding text?

I am quite interested in the possibility that Seneca may have been an early believer in the Spirit before Jesus was introduced. In fact one Neville who manipulated my posts on the Jesus Mysteries site got upset when I suggested that the correspondence between Paul and Seneca could be genuine.

Geoff

Toto

The correspondence between Paul and Seneca is a well-known forgery, and some people do tend to get upset when confronted with ideas that are so clearly disproven.

But if you like that sort of stuff, you might want to check out http://www.nazarenus.com - which was the subject of a thread last year Is Senaca the Author of a play that led to the Gospels?

Geoff Hudson

Disproven where?

The play is an admitted forgery, the letters are not.

Geoff

Geoff Hudson

Have you read Seneca's Epistle 41 - On The God Within Us? It has some interesting phrases that are not too far removed from the idea of the spirit of truth in a person as in the Dead Sea Scrolls and in remnants of the NT left untouched by the editors. Seneca would have accepted easily the idea of a person's holy spirit being like the Jewish spirit of truth - a spirit that had its origin in God (as distinct from the spirit of deceit).

"We do not need uplift our hands towards heaven, or to beg the keeper of a temple to let us approach his idol's ear, as if in this way our prayers were more likely to be heard. God is near you, he is with you, he is within you. This is what I mean, Lucilius: a holy spirit indwells within us, one who marks our good and bad deeds, and is our guardian. As we treat this spirit, so we are treated by it. Indeed, no man can be good without the help of God."

"Just as the rays of the sun do indeed touch this earth, but still abide at the source from which they are sent; even so the great and hallowed soul(of a person) has come down in order that we might have a nearer knowledge of divinity, does indeed associate with us, but still clings to its origin; on that source it depends, thither it turns its gaze and strives to go, and it concerns itself with our doings only as a being superior to ourselves."

Geoff

Iasion

Greetings all,

I have been searching for the works of Seneca online for some time, but have been unable to source them - even Perseus doesn't have him (?)

I have found On Benefits, but no more.

Does anyone know where I can get an online copy of his works? It is only for private research.

As to the correspondance of Paul and Seneca, I thoght it was well established they were later forgeries.

Quentin David Jones

Toto

The letters are almost universally considered to be 4th century forgeries, and have been for so long that there is not much discussion. But a brief web search found this:

From this site, which tries (ineffectively IMHO) to argue for their authenticity,

Geoff Hudson

Thankyou for the site. I will see what it has to say. I do have Paul Berry's book, have read it thoroughly but have formed my own opinions. My initial reaction to Lightfoot is that one would not expect much else from a nineteenth century churchman.

Geoff

Geoff Hudson

Toto,

May be they are not almost universally thought to be forgeries after all.

Geoff

RENEWED DEBATE OVER ALLEGED LETTERS BETWEEN SENECA AND ST. PAUL
New Findings Could Support Letters' Authenticity
MILAN, OCT 14 1999

"I like the letters you have written to the Galatians, the Corinthians and the Acheans. But, you must watch the style, lest in some way its brilliance fails to measure up to the sublimity of the thought." Could it really be Seneca, the Stoic philosopher, who wrote these lines to St. Paul, in a benevolent attempt to simplify the Apostle's prose? There are manuscripts of letters that could have been exchanged between the Apostle and the pagan philosopher between 58-64 A.D, during Paul's stay in Rome, under house-arrest, while awaiting trial. These letters were known as early as the 4th century. St. Jerome quotes them for the first time. St. Augustine alludes to them but, until the present, this correspondence has been considered apocryphal.

Maria Grazia Mara, professor emeritus of the History of Christianity in the Roman University "La Sapienza," affirmed that "precisely around the 4th century, the forged letters reflected an ongoing debate: the need for Christians to improve their writing, so that the roughness of the Latin translations of the Scriptures would not be considered vulgar to educated pagans,".

Currently, in a congress entitled "Seneca and the Christians," organized by the Catholic University of Milan, experts are debating whether it is a simply a forgery created to stir controversy, or an authentic letter of Seneca to St. Paul.
Participants in the congress include those who believe in the authenticity of the letters -- at least 12 out of 14 --, who are offering with new arguments to support their claims.

"Research carried out by Ilaria Ramelli, one of my students, is inclining me toward belief in their authenticity," Marta Sordi, said. Sordi is professor of Ancient History at the Catholic University of Milan. "Examination of the texts reveals that in the letters allegedly written by Paul, Greek sayings are more copious than in Seneca's letters," Sordi said. "For example, Paul says 'sophist' instead of 'sapiens'; and for 'incoherence' he uses the word 'aporia.' This is obviously true, given the fact that Paul spoke Greek, the universal language of the Mediterranean, and not Latin." "As regards Seneca," Sordi continued, when he wishes to express "'fear of God,' he writes the word 'deorum' (of the gods). A Christian forger would never have used that expression but, instead, 'timor Dei' (fear of God)."

Other proposed proofs include "an inscription that was found in Ostia. It is the funerary dedication by someone called Marco Anneo Paulo to his own son, called Paulopetrus. Obviously, they were converts, if they called themselves by the names of the two first apostles. And they are members of Lucius Anneo Seneca's family, given that they have the same surname -- Anneo. Perhaps "libertos" (freed slaves) of Seneca. In any case, the inscription of Ostia -- the place where Paul was martyred --, confirms the presence of Christians, perhaps converted by Paul himself, among those who associated with Seneca."

But the new evidence doesn't end here. "In the fifth letter, the alleged Seneca writes to the alleged Paul, alluding with reservation to a certain 'lady' who was indignant with Paul 'because he has left the ancient worship and converted others.' The unidentified lady can only be Poppea, Nero's wife. We know that the empress was pro-Jewish, and her hostility toward Paul might have been suggested by the Jewish atmosphere surrounding her that tried to influence Nero himself. A dangerous hostility, and that is why Seneca only alludes to the lady but does not give her name." "However, a 4th century forger would have no reason to be so reluctant," Sordi insisted. No doubt the two letters are false," Sordi admitted. The last one, in which Paul speaks to Seneca as though to a convert, and the twelfth, where the alleged Seneca writes about the fire in Rome ... although the date is wrong."

"In fact, St. Jerome, who believed in the authenticity of these letters, was unaware of this one, dated 64 (A.D.), Sordi explained.

When asked if history coincides with the letters, Maria Grazia Mara continues to disbelieve. "If Seneca was that close to the faith, as it seems from the letters, the first Christians would have 'exploited' his figure for propaganda ...," Mara said. And she does not see differences in social classes as an obstacle for people to get to know one another. "They could very easily have known one another. There is no lack of examples of contacts between Christians of a very modest social level and converts belonging to the elite," Mara said.

Sordi added: "As evident in the Acts of the Apostles, Paul was very enterprising in making himself known at higher levels. In Ephesus, he befriended Exarchs, powerful dignitaries adept at the imperial cult. Cyprus' consul, a very wealthy industrialist, called him to hear him speak. And in Corinth, Paul met the consul of Acaya, Anneo Novato Gallione, who was Seneca's brother."
Arguments both for and against the authenticity of the letters continue to surface but, as one scholar suggested 'off the record' during a coffee break in the formal academic proceedings: "whether or not Paul and Seneca were friends during their lifetime, we'd like to think that they are now."