lateralis

Hi everyone, I'm pretty new here. you can all call me lateralis

I've been reading up on a lot of threads around these parts and I had a few questions as I'm still "finding my voice" as some have said.

relevant personal history:
I am 26 years old (on april 5th) and I was raised in a reform jewish household. I had a number of psychological issues growing up which rose from the fact that I was adopted. I had a drug problem in late highschool and early college which led me join alcoholics annonymous when I was 19 and I've been clean and sober since then (7 years+). However I have not been an active member of AA for almost the last 3 years as I had some serious problems with the religious issues that arise from 12-step recovery (not the point of this thread though) I consider myself to be an atheist and to me, my atheism means this:

I do not believe in existence of any sort of all-powerful deity, or deities. I have some serious problems with the way that my government (USA) treats issues revolving around religion and god. Christianity causes me particular pain. 12-step recovery causes me particular pain. I believe that religion has caused most of the hardship and pain that has existed and continues to exist in the world today.

Now that that is out of the way... the questions (a bunch of these are in response to the thread about "what are you doing to help secularism")

1. what's a fundie?

2. if I think that the world would be a better place if there were no religion, does that make me a "militant atheist"?

3. although I understand the argument that "if you evangelize you are just as bad as the religious folk" why is this wrong? Since it is obvious that this is the language that they understand (and use) why is it wrong to use the same language and methods to try and change their minds? (I mainly ask because it seems that many here are against this approach)

4. I've heard the arguments that atheist's gathering together is almost like making a religion out of the lack of religion. Do many feel this way? I have not gone to any "gatherings" yet so I don't know what these things are like. I know from my time in judaism and AA that group-think can be very powerful and thus, I tend to be skeptical of large gatherings that are supposedly for some sort of "cause". What have people's experiences with these kinds of gatherings been?

Ok, I think that's it for now. thanks in advance!!

lateralis

ps: if this is too much for one thread, im sorry, I could start a few more. I'm mainly asking these questions to get a feel for what's sorts of different opinions are out there. I know how I feel about these issues, I guess in a way I'm fishing. Kinda like an acid test for my atheism.

Psycho Economist

Hi. I wouldn't consider myseslf "experienced" as an atheist, regardless of how you mean experienced... but I do have opinions about your questions.

Well, this sizes up a fundamentalist Christian well, it's how Barna Research phrases questions to sort "evangellicals" from other ChristiansFundamentalists of any religions define themselves by adhere to analogous claims that have been abandoned as untenable by most followers of the particular religion, ususally in light of modern science, philosophy or contact with other religious and cultural groups.


I don't think so. Remember that a militant is someone who's confrontational about whatever they're a militant of. It's reflected in actions, not beliefs.

Don't bother teaching a pig to sing: it wastes your time and it annoys the pig.

People get defensive when they think you're trying to deprive them of something, and proselytizing a different belief system will be seen as an attempt to try and take their beliefs away from them. Now, maybe you think that de-converting a teetering, doubting Christian is worth making several enemies upon whom your efforts were in vain. I don't, but hell, I'll concede that's a matter of my opinion vs. yours.

Since you're (perhaps tentatively) advancing the opinion that proselytizing at people is okay, can I have your address to send the Mormons your way when they come knocking on my door?

Atheism is only relevant with respect to theism, and wherever theism isn't present, or at least isn't relevant, conversation is pulls and binds the people by their opinions on other issues. Consequently, "gatherings" tend to focus more on the people present than on atheism.

Additionally, groupthink requires a certain amount of cohesiveness in which to fester, and I think since atheism doesn't carry a party line on other issues, that cohesion isn't there. Of course, that lack of all-encompassing cohesion also makes it harder to come together when religion does become salient.

copernicus

It is a pejorative label for a "fundamentalist". Because it is easiest to argue against the most extreme position that one opposes, atheists love to attack fundamentalists. The truth is, however, that most christians are not fundamentalists.

What if you are? I think that the more important question is why you believe that. I think that most atheists, like most people, tend to exaggerate the virtues of their own kind and the evils of those who think differently. I think that religion is the cause of much misery and evil, but humans are resourceful and can find secular justifications for bad behavior. There is nothing about atheism that leads one to be more righteous than theists, it's just that theism provides people with a ready-made excuse to commit anti-social acts--anything is permissible if God wills it.

That depends. Religion is a coping mechanism. Irrational as it may seem to non-theists, it is endemic in most modern societies. If someone engages me in argument or discussion about religion, then their ideas are fair game, IMHO. They are ready to risk giving up that coping mechanism and exposing themselves to my different viewpoints. Personally, I don't care whether people believe in theism or not, as long as they are willing to tolerate and respect my different belief system. The important thing is not what you believe, but how you react to the different beliefs of others.

Not in the slightest. Religion is as much a social phenomenon as it is a personal one. There are dogmatic atheists, just as there are dogmatic theists. I believe that one of the strongest forces holding people to religion is the way that religion permeates social interactions. Most of our important milestones in life have religious ceremonies associated with them--birth (baptism), puberty (confirmation/bar mitzvah), marriage, weekly socializing, death, etc. It is not surprising that religious people should see atheist gatherings as "religious", since many of their own social experiences are for religious purposes. Atheists who meet with each other do so for the same reason that anyone joins a social event--to meet like-minded people. You might as well argue that the local chess club is a religious gathering.

lateralis

thaks for the in depth responses, after lurking here for a bit, I expected nothing less

I'm glad I finally know what a fundie is. I gathered it meant "a deep believer" but I just couldn't figure out what it was derived from. thanks.

I agree with what was said concerning #3, I don't usually get up on my soapbox unless "invited" up there by someone who has either asked me what I believe and then proceeded to try and tell me I'm wrong, or has in some other way "gotten into it". However, I do tend to be guilty of "more than answering the question" if you know what I mean.

concerning #2, I definately agree with the concept that "if god didn't exist, it would be neccessary to create him" and that this has happened, for many and varied social reasons. I don't mean to imply that atheists are somehow more "righteous" (it seems somewhat ironical to use that type of language) and I am certainly not trying to say that humans wouldn't still be beating the shit out of each other even without the various gods. But I do have a very adamant "ok guys... it's 2003... read that book you love so much... I know I read something in there that told you to put away childish things. can't we put yahweh, allah, santa and the toothfairy out to pasture already?" viewpoint. I guess I'm just trying to gauge where I lie on the "atheist spectrum"

thanks again for the responses!

lateralis

Shake

I'd just like to add on that "fundie" (or "fundy") as used here on these boards usually pertains to Xian fundamentalists. These folks are hardcore, proselytizing types. Don't forget, though, that other religions (can) have their own fundies, too! Your average Muslim will tell you that those who perpetrated the 9/11/01 attacks against the US were Islamic "fundies"! The fundies represent an extreme (usually a minority) opinion of the larger religion and its views.

copernicus and PE have given good answers to your other questions, and I don't have anything to add to their well-thought out responses on those.

Toto

You should also note that some fundamentalists take offense at the term "fundy", and if it is going to stop the discussion, it is better to avoid the term. There is a tendency on these boards to use the term "fundy" loosely to refer to all religious conservatives, or all dogmatically positioned persons.

admice

Also, should you feel the need, there is a program called SMART for addiction recovery that is similar to AA, but is secular and partly sponsored by the American Humanist Association. Don't know if they have a program in your area, but you might check out the AHA site if you want support along those lines. congrats on your long sobriety and welcome.

livius drusus

Hi lateralis -

I know this is off-topic, but have you seen Cliff Walker's work on 12 step programs? His site also happens to feature the best collection of infidel-themed quotes on the web, and a fascinating letters page, but his AA material stands out.

lateralis

I haven't, but I now will, thanks for the link!

Javaman

Does anyone know how Cliff is doing these days? I'm worried about him but I don't actually know him personally... I'm just concerned.