Freethought & Rationalism Archive

MrDarwin · 07-24-2002, 05:34 AM

I posted these questions in another discussion that was, alas, banished to RRP. I'm re-posting them in a new discussion here in the hopes that this one will generate some serious discussion:

Do you believe that a merciful god would allow any soul to suffer for eternity, without hope of relief, redemption, or forgiveness?

Do you believe that God will withhold his/her/its love from those who are condemned to hell?

babelfish · 07-24-2002, 05:50 AM

Sorry Mr. Darwin, I'll delete my post.

[ July 24, 2002: Message edited by: babelfish ]</p>

MrDarwin · 07-24-2002, 06:36 AM

I would prefer to hear from our theists.

[ July 24, 2002: Message edited by: MrDarwin ]</p>

ManM · 07-24-2002, 08:47 AM

MrDarwin,
I believe that hell is our reaction to the love of God. Saying those in hell are deprived of God's love is like saying the sun hides itself from those who close their eyes.

wildernesse · 07-24-2002, 09:08 AM

This seems to create a conflict between a merciful god and a just god. A just god has no mercy--it simply metes out what is right. A merciful god would see a just sentence of punishment, have mercy and forego the punishment.

I'll have to think about this.

--tiba

ManM · 07-24-2002, 12:07 PM

wildernesse,
I would suggest dropping the 'just' part of God. Where was God's justice in the parable where he gave the last the same wages as those who worked all day? Where was God's justice when he threw a party for the prodigal son? I don't see any justice in those scenarios.

Tercel · 07-24-2002, 07:23 PM

I concur with ManM

wildernesse · 07-24-2002, 08:00 PM

Why do you think that God is not just (as opposed to unjust)? What do you make of the following verses? (Although I don�t see the Bible as totally literal, I�m interested in your explanations of the following. NIV)

In Romans 3:23b-26, Paul says, in reference for the need of salvation:

Quote:

There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of god, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished�he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

On the other hand, by only requiring the justified payment of himself, he shows mercy to all of those whose sins he bore. Which would be the whole of humanity. But if he�s already shown mercy, why does it matter if you believe it or not?

--tiba

katellagen · 07-24-2002, 09:07 PM

I'll jump in here, though I don't know how far I can take this.

Here goes:

ManM wrote:

Quote:

I would suggest dropping the 'just' part of God. Where was God's justice in the parable where he gave the last the same wages as those who worked all day? Where was God's justice when he threw a party for the prodigal son? I don't see any justice in those scenarios.

I would say that just because certain passages don't mention justice doesn't mean it's not a critical part of the equation. Not every text teaches us everything there is to know about God. For example, the parable of the tenants:

Quote:

Mark 12

1He then began to speak to them in parables: "A man planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a pit for the winepress and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and went away on a journey. 2At harvest time he sent a servant to the tenants to collect from them some of the fruit of the vineyard. 3But they seized him, beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 4Then he sent another servant to them; they struck this man on the head and treated him shamefully. 5He sent still another, and that one they killed. He sent many others; some of them they beat, others they killed.
6"He had one left to send, a son, whom he loved. He sent him last of all, saying, 'They will respect my son.'
7"But the tenants said to one another, 'This is the heir. Come, let's kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.' 8So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.
9"What then will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others. 10Haven't you read this scripture:
" 'The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone[1] ;
11the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes'[2] ?"
12Then they looked for a way to arrest him because they knew he had spoken the parable against them. But they were afraid of the crowd; so they left him and went away.

No mention of mercy there. Not because God is not merciful, but because He has a different point to make here.

Similarly, when I'm displaying love to my children in kindness or generosity or mercy, it doesn't mean I'll never discipline them for wrongdoing - nor do they think I won't. Different circumstances call for different actions.

The very concept of mercy presupposes a standard of justice, and a specific act of mercy presupposes a specific justice due for certain actions. Without justice mercy is nothing but whim or utterly undiscriminating action. (I'm speaking of mercy here in the biblical sense pertaining to salvation from suffering in hell since that was MrDarwin's question.) Mercy in this sense can't be shown to someone who deserves nothing different. So wildernesse is right in seeing justice as essential to the question.

MrDarwin

Quote:

Do you believe that a merciful god would allow any soul to suffer for eternity, without hope of relief, redemption, or forgiveness?

I believe that God will allow souls to suffer for eternity.

I believe God is merciful.

I believe God is just.

I believe all evil will recieve its just punishment.

MrDarwin

Quote:

Do you believe that God will withhold his/her/its love from those who are condemned to hell?

I believe that at the end of their days on earth, many will have fully and finally set themselves against God.

I believe they will continue to live in this state of enmity, hostility, and rejection - forever recieving what they have chosen.

(I don't like to address these matters so bluntly, but your questions were pretty direct.)

Peace

katellagen · 07-24-2002, 09:31 PM

wildernesse:

Quote:

Why do you think that God is not just (as opposed to unjust)?

Can you explain the distinction you're making here? I don't see the difference between the two. (That is, for those who hold that He exists and acts.)

Peace

07-24-2002, 05:34 AM	#1
MrDarwin Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 4,140	Questions for theists I posted these questions in another discussion that was, alas, banished to RRP. I'm re-posting them in a new discussion here in the hopes that this one will generate some serious discussion: Do you believe that a merciful god would allow any soul to suffer for eternity, without hope of relief, redemption, or forgiveness? Do you believe that God will withhold his/her/its love from those who are condemned to hell?

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07-24-2002, 05:50 AM	#2
babelfish Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Augusta, Maine, USA Posts: 2,046	Sorry Mr. Darwin, I'll delete my post. [ July 24, 2002: Message edited by: babelfish ]</p>

07-24-2002, 06:36 AM	#3
MrDarwin Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 4,140	I would prefer to hear from our theists. [ July 24, 2002: Message edited by: MrDarwin ]</p>

07-24-2002, 08:47 AM	#4
ManM Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: NW Florida, USA Posts: 1,279	MrDarwin, I believe that hell is our reaction to the love of God. Saying those in hell are deprived of God's love is like saying the sun hides itself from those who close their eyes.

07-24-2002, 09:08 AM	#5
wildernesse Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 1,578	This seems to create a conflict between a merciful god and a just god. A just god has no mercy--it simply metes out what is right. A merciful god would see a just sentence of punishment, have mercy and forego the punishment. I'll have to think about this. --tiba

07-24-2002, 12:07 PM	#6
ManM Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: NW Florida, USA Posts: 1,279	wildernesse, I would suggest dropping the 'just' part of God. Where was God's justice in the parable where he gave the last the same wages as those who worked all day? Where was God's justice when he threw a party for the prodigal son? I don't see any justice in those scenarios.

07-24-2002, 07:23 PM	#7
Tercel Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: New Zealand Posts: 1,315	I concur with ManM

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