Lobstrosity

Would reincarnation actually make you happy, though (assuming it did exist)? When you're reincarnated you have no memories of your previous life. You are isomorphic with a completely new individual. With reincarnation you still die and lose everything. The fact that you come back again is made pointless by the fact that "you" is no longer defined.

Infidelettante

Originally posted by emotional
Three Ways there are towards the Mystery of the Cosmos: The Materialistic, The Gnostic and the Christian.

I think there must be many other ways than these. I know my way doesn't quite fit your definitions.

The Materialistic Way says: matter is all, nature is all, evolution builds all, and death is the fate of all. The materialistic way squares up with the evidence, and is likely to be Real and True. Good and evil are human perceptions, and the truth is an indifferent cosmos. Death is the end of everything. My greatest fear.

I find nothing I disagree with though I might quibble over fine points. I don't think of myself as materialist but I will say Mater cares for me in her way.

The Gnostic Way says: our souls are trapped inside bodies which obstruct them. Our purpose is to spiritually evolve, until we reach Union with the Godhead - "ye will be like gods...". The Gnostic way is the way of magick and mystery and other things that I, as a sceptic, have no belief in.

The soul is not trapped in the body. The body is soul. Matter is living. It would be correct to say that the body swims in soul, it is immersed in soul. Here, I think, the Gnostics are wrong. I do magic and it opens me to the mysteries of the Cosmos and helps me understand my place in it. There are many Pagans who use magic but would reject the Gnostic view of the body. We would say the body the greatest of blessings and should be celebrated in every way.

Don't you think that some of the characteristics of Christianity came from Gnosticism. Paul had a strong distrust of the body and spoke of the flesh fighting against the spirit. Later in your post you say that Gnosticism is experiental [I sniped it out] and I want to say that my religion is also experiental but not Gnostic. We Pagans tend to have a good time with it. The Gnostics don't sound like a fun lot do they?

The Christian Way

.I've got nothing I could to add to your understanding of Christianity.

Materialism is The Truth - this I know, yet I am still confused. And very depressed and fearful of the message of final death. If death is the end of all, then life is pointless. I disbelieve in gods, yet I keep wishing they existed. I believe in materialism, yet I keep wishing it may be untrue after all.

I'm glad you brought up the subject of truth. That seems to be your real trouble. What is true and where do I find whatever is true? What works is true. If materialism works for you then materialism is true. If one part materialism and two parts theism works for you then one part materialism and two parts theism is true. Mix & match existentialism and fuck what anyone else thinks. Who says you have to choose from only three patterns? Why can't you make your own religious pattern with a splash of materialism, a spot of theism, a streak of atheism, all on a background of mysticism. Find what works and you will find what is true. And have some fun with it 'cause if it ain't fun it ain't true.

JT

Treacle Worshipper

First, I want to say that no-one knows what happens after death. Given our current physical knowledge it is extremely unlikely that anything we would recognise as "us" does survive. But we've been wrong about things before. If you feel it helps you to believe in an afterlife, I don't see any reason why you shouldn't. (I know that this is terrible reasoning looked at from a scientific perspective, but we don't know what happens after death, so there is the possibility that we continue. I personally don't believe this.)

Secondly, altho' I don't expect to be around after death, deciding what I want done with my physical remains helps me to not fear going. I want to be buried under a tree. Then, the tree is likely to get some sustenance from me - and I get to be a tree! Okay, it's a fairy tale, but I get some comfort out of it. I don't know if that will happen to me when I die, but by then I won't be around to worry about it. The point is, it's a sort of comfort now.

I have debated about saying this, because I think it might be more hurtful than helpful, but otoh it might help you, so here goes. You don't know that you're going to wake up again when you go to sleep. You just presume you will because you always have. That's the hurtful bit, I'm hoping the next bit will be a bit more helpful. The point is, if you were to die in your sleep, you wouldn't notice any difference, you wouldn't know. And I guess that's really why dying doesn't bother me. And is probably exactly why it bothers you.

Finally, I want to say I admire you greatly for sticking with the scientific truth because it's true, even tho' it leaves you with the conclusion you most dread. I think it's courageous of you to face life like that, and there are many people who wouldn't do it.
TW

emotional

Here I'm afraid I have to disagree. I'm a firm believer in absolute, objective truth, as in "a rose is a rose is a rose". As much as I'm an emotional type (cf my username), it's very clear to me that truth is not determined by one's emotions. Truth is determined by evidence. The evidence is all for biological evolution, the non-existence of gods, and mind-brain identity (non-existence of the soul). When I accept Darwin's Theory of Evolution, I have to accept it as a package deal together with Materialism as a whole.

I believe the Theory (and Fact, of course) of Evolution is not just an isolated statement about biology - it's a whole metaphysical package deal. That is, if evolution is true (and it is...), then all its materialistic ramifications follow. If we are just a twig on a branch on the Tree of Life, then it doesn't follow that we should enjoy the privilege of Life After Death any more than cockroaches do. Amoebas and stars are extinguished, so all of a sudden Homo Sapiens should be exempt?! Not bloody likely. It's very obvious to me that biological evolution means no life after death.

As for my perennial fear of death, well, it's not going to be cured by doing make-belief in non-materialistic theories. I often try to convince myself Nature might be kind, and not consign us individuals into oblivion, but deeply I know Nature is not kind, and permits all manner of atrocities and injustices. I think my fear of death, like any phobia or depression, is to be lessened by taking the right chemicals, as prescribed by professionals. I've been toying with New Age, Paganism and Christianity all, and while each of those has had some attractions for me, I know they don't stand up to the test of evidence.

Starboy

emotional, not only will New Age, Paganism etc not stand up to the test of evidence but if your fear of death is a deep seated phobia they will do little to help you cope. Such fears are purely emotional and are greatly affected by brain chemistry. I think you should seek professional medical help if you are really interested in dealing with your obsession with death.

Starboy

emotional

I'm not a newcomer to world of medications. Some of them have done me a bit of good (kept me alive when I was suicidal). But some of the fears are still latent. My reaction to universal evil and human evil has always been very high. I saw the proverbial "old man, sick man and a corpse" at a young age, but unlike Buddha, I haven't managed to fashion a sensible philosophy around those findings. Universal evil and human evil so distress me that I find myself very much attracted to the Christian false-promise of "God will create a New Earth without evil". But I know the evil in the universe and world is because the universe and world were never meant to problem-free, and as long as the world is inhabited by free-moving, free-willed creatures, it will persist.

The main attraction of Christianity, to me, is that evil wasn't in the original plan, but was later acquired (by the result of man's sin), and so will one day be mended, and good restored. But this is dependent on the Genesis story's being true, which it isn't. Also, the Christian religion doesn't really end the evil for all people, just for a select few, while the rest will have wailing and gnashing of teeth for ever and ever, amen. Hardly a happy ending.

The Gnostic, or New-Age/Pagan, way isn't much better. It's actually a flight from the world instead of confronting it - a flight to mystical conceptions, to dreams and delusions. And again, no evidence. What little belief I had in the paranormal vanished in the 9/11 attacks - the fact that none of the "diviners" and "fortune tellers" and tarot readers and psychics had any clear clue it was going to happen was the last straw. The New Age emperor has no clothes.

In the end, the only explanation that makes sense is what Dawkins said:

And this is a harsh truth to accept! But truth is not a free lunch...

Starboy

emotional, let me know when you manage to accept it.

Starboy

Radorth

Well not really. I think we can sense the same is true inately. We seem to invent new sins daily. Real Estate contracts in CA used to be 3 pages long (in my lifetime). Now it's 40 pages long and you have to initial that you've read each page. (How sick is that? You have to lie to buy a house).

Suppose there was no Genesis story, and we had only the words of Jesus. Him saying "from the beginning it was not so" etc. We would still have sins resulting from abuse of free will, to be justified and forgiven. It matters little whether we call it sin or "original sin." We have it, we invent it, and we are lost in it.

Rad

Yellum Notnef

Why lie? Why not just read the pages if lying about reading them is a "sin"?

Heh. Stick with what works for you I guess.

Radorth

Criminy. How snooty is that?

I suppose you're the arbiter of truth Starboy. Hopefully you aren't a Jesus-myther. I'd probably puke if I found out you were.

I don't suppose it ever occurred to you that highly intelligent, free-thinking, people, very disdainful of religion, came to believe in Christ, and not because they wanted some intellectual "free lunch"?

Rad