Freethought & Rationalism Archive

godfry n. glad · 06-18-2003, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Artemus
Hmm...anyone think that retractions will be printed/aired with the same publicity as the announcements? I have entirely lost what little respect I might have had for the Discovery channel after their specials.

Well, I, for one, will be ever so interested to see what Shanks, Witherington and the editorial staff of the BAR have to say for themselves.

Hee hee hee...

I'm thinking that somebody in the IGS is going to be canned. And possibly indicted, too.

godfry

Vorkosigan · 06-18-2003, 08:30 AM

<puffs victory cigar>

That's a massive trans-Pacific high-five to you, Toto!

Thanks for your gracious acknowledgement, Haran. In fairness, the forger fooled everybody. Did anybody out there think the entire inscription was a fake? I didn't. Even Rochelle Altman thought only the second half was fake. She also thinks the Temple Ostracon is fake as well. I wonder if we'll get a hat trick here......

Could it be that preconceived notions influenced the group? I don't know, but I'm interested.

How do you think they influenced the geochemical assay of the patina? Or this:

And now finding that this "patina" could be easily rubbed off the letters, unmistakably fresh engraving marks could be seen.

I leaned toward the authenticity of the James Ossuary inscription because of the heavy scholarly weight behind it.

Like I said, wrong area of expertise. The inscription was never going to be decisive.

"Thus in this case, it was geochemical and microscopic analysis--rather than scholarly erudition--that uncovered the truth."

Vorkosigan, can you now share some of what you were told about the whole affair and by whom?

No, and no. I'll PM you later.

But you know, Haran, you nailed the forgery yourself, as I pointed out, when you connected the extant inscriptions in the references to the inscription on the ossuary. That was a real insight that I never could have made, even though you peeked over the edge of the abyss, and then refused to jump in.

The Survey of Israel geologists had even misidentified the rock type.

Unbelievable!

Actually, I'm a little shocked that they were so unequivocal. Reading between the lines, it must have been a disappointingly bad fake to real experts gathering there, licking their chops over the opportunity to do some real sleuthing.

So...I'm not all that interested in Shanks and Witherington. I expected them to dine on Corvus, although Shanks is such a prize asshole I am sure he'll find a way to bluff it out through a mixture of fervent denials and personal attacks. No, the real mystery here is Lemaire. What did he know, and when did he know it? I remain skeptical of his innocence.

Vorkosigan

godfry n. glad · 06-18-2003, 08:40 AM

Well... What set my alarms off was the inappropriate opinion on the ossuary source from the IGS and then the hurried departure from Israel _without_ IAA even looking at it. In the case of such items, the IAA is _the_ definitive source, not the IGS. The ossuary was winging its way to Toronto before the IAA even knew it existed...fishy. And, it served a clear and specific agenda to do so. Even fishier.

The bluster of Shanks at the hearing where he attacked the SOR representative for being dubious about promoting an item without provenence smacked of knowing and hiding the truth.

Then, the IGS misidentified the type of rock the Jehoash Tablet was inscribed on? C'mon....these are _geologists_? That's what I mean about somebody at IGS having their head on the block.

Is a horselaugh appropriate at this point?

godfry

Sauron · 06-18-2003, 09:30 AM

The James inscription cut through the ancient limestone box's patina, a thin coating acquired with age, the experts said, proving the writing was not ancient.

Oops.

''The person who wrote the inscription was a person who thinks in modern Hebrew,'' he told a news conference in Jerusalem. ''A person thinking in biblical Hebrew would see it as ridiculous.''

Let's see. Oded Golan is in possession of two elaborate forgeries that he tried to pass off as genuine.

"A person who thinks in modern Hebrew." Wonder who that could be?

The artifact had been valued at $1 million to $2 million, based on the claimed link with Jesus.

News flash: its revised value is somewhere between a Chicken McNuggets meal and a Powerball lottery ticket.

godfry n. glad · 06-18-2003, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sauron
The James inscription cut through the ancient limestone box's patina, a thin coating acquired with age, the experts said, proving the writing was not ancient.

Oops.

''The person who wrote the inscription was a person who thinks in modern Hebrew,'' he told a news conference in Jerusalem. ''A person thinking in biblical Hebrew would see it as ridiculous.''

Let's see. Oded Golan is in possession of two elaborate forgeries that he tried to pass off as genuine.

"A person who thinks in modern Hebrew." Wonder who that could be?

The artifact had been valued at $1 million to $2 million, based on the claimed link with Jesus.

News flash: its revised value is somewhere between a Chicken McNuggets meal and a Powerball lottery ticket.

Heh... An old, useless Powerball lottery ticket.

Hey... Couldn't they make it into "sidewalk chalk" that they could sell to gullible types as "James Remains Chalk Markers"? There's _some_ residual value. Not much, but some.

And, I bet there's an insurance company out there with a busy legal counsel office right now. I wonder if Golan put in a claim on the broken ossuary after it arrived at ROM?

Wouldn't that be choice?

godfry

Sauron · 06-18-2003, 10:24 AM

This has got to really burn the ossuary fanatics:

Strangest of all was the "James Bond," the chalky material that coated the letters. It contained numerous microfossils called coccoliths, naturally occurring as foreign particles in chalk, but not dissolved by water. Hence it was clear that this was not a true patina formed by the surface crystallization of calcite, but rather powdered chalk--microfossils and all--that was dissolved in water and daubed over the entire inscription.

[...]

Indeed method of imitating ancient patina by preparing and applying a carefully designed mixture of generally similar material was also evident inside and between the letters of the Jehoash Inscription. The results obtained by Ayalon made that clear. His study concentrated on a telltale clue to the nature of authentic ancient patina: its isotopic ratio of oxygen provides a distinctive indication of the qualities of the water with which the patina was produced.

So a knowledge of evolution and paleobiology/paleobotany (i.e., coccoliths), combined with the proper application of radioisotope dating, shot down the ossuary.
:notworthy :notworthy

NB - Those EVIL scientists. This just confirms that eevil-ution is of the DEVIL! These coco-fossil thingies were deposited by Noah's flood! That's why there are fossils on the tops of mountains! The earth is only 6000 years old! Radiocarbon dating is flawed!

godfry n. glad · 06-18-2003, 11:25 AM

I shall enjoy watching Shanks tap-dance around this one.

I wonder if he'll claim that the result is because the investigating commissions were "anti-Semitic"? Heh... It's not like he's not done it before.

I can just see the fundies screaming, "That's those Jews! They're Jesus killers! Of course they'd try to debunk anything that even suggested that Jesus might have existed!"

<deep sigh>

godfry

godfry n. glad · 06-18-2003, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Haran
Could it be that preconceived notions influenced the group? I don't know, but I'm interested.

Oh, I'd say there were definitely some preconcieved notions that influenced Lemaire, Shanks and the BAR group...even Frank Moore Cross.

godfry

Toto · 06-18-2003, 01:56 PM

Will this turn into another Shroud?

National Geographic

Quote:

"There doesn't appear to be anything new in the report, either in terms of evidence or argument," said Ben Witherington, a New Testament professor at Asbury Theological Seminary in Wilmore, Kentucky. "And they haven't looked at or taken into account the Toronto evidence."

A conference of biblical scholars took place in December at the Royal Ontario Museum, allowing a large number of antiquities professionals to look at the box, and many were convinced of its authenticity, he said. The box also underwent laboratory testing in Toronto and was examined using mass spectrometry, ultraviolet light, and other tests.

. . .

"All they seem to have looked at is the patina issue. No one is doubting that this is an ancient Jewish ossuary," said Witherington, who is co-author of The Brother of Jesus. "Nor is anybody arguing about whether the inscription is more recent than the ossuary. I think we're talking about a reused ossuary, which would account for some of the discrepancies in weathering." The book, published March 18, describes the find itself, and what it tells us about biblical times and the origins of Christianity.

"Even if it was [made of stone quarried outside of Jerusalem], what difference would that make? We know the people of the times carted cedars from Lebanon to Jerusalem to use in building the temple; why wouldn't stone masons bring in good quality stone?"

Sounds like Witherington missed the point, or is in denial.

Another doubter

Quote:

However, the head curator of an exhibition of the ossuary at Toronto's Royal Ontario Museum earlier this year disagrees with the committee's report. "At the moment our position [based on] our own examination suggests the inscription and box are authentic, Dr. Ed Keall told globeandmail.com.

The officials in Israel reached their conclusions after intensive exams by several committees of experts, the authority said.

But tests done at the ROM in Toronto in early January led Dr. Keall and his team to different conclusions.

"My position is that a team of us felt we were looking at something that was genuine," he said.

The technicians in Toronto looked at how the box was preserved on all sides, they examined the inscriptions under strong powers of magnification and they examined a crack in one side that they found to be deeply pitted.

(The ossuary developed cracks en route to Toronto from Israel. The cracks extended through the latter parts of the inscription).

Dr. Keall said in his opinion, the inscription itself looked to have been cleaned, accounting for the removal of the patina. He said he was convinced there were enough varieties in the level and depth of the inscription that would be impossible for a forger to reproduce.

More to the point

What 'Jesus hoax' could mean for Mideast antiques

Quote:

"How many more items are in museums that are not authentic, items from the antiquities market and not from archaeological sites?" asks Gideon Avni, director of the Excavations and Surveys Department at the IAA.

"It's the most serious question that this incident should raise," adds Dr. Avni, "that of forgeries getting into museums upon which research is based and conclusions are drawn."

MSNBC story

Quote:

Uzi Dahari, a member of the committee that studied the burial box, or ossuary, was more condemnatory. The inscription is ''a contamination of the archaeological science,'' he said. ''It's breaking my heart to see such things.''

Dahari said the inscription was recently painted over with a homemade paste made of crushed chalk and very hot water. ''It's not a good fake.''

I bet that really hurt - not even a good fake!

But Shanks still believes!

Quote:

Hershel Shanks, editor of the Washington-based Biblical Archaeology Review, which first revealed the inscription, said he still believed the burial box was authentic, pointing to several previous studies that supported his belief. He said the issue was fraught with ''archaeological politics.''

''The jury is still out. There's no question about that,'' he said. Shanks defended the scratched patina over the inscription, saying the box had been scrubbed heavily by the mother of the man who owns it.

Neil A. Silberman, a historian with the Ename Center for Public Archaeology in Belgium, said those previous studies were ''fairly slipshod examinations'' by people who ''really wanted this to be true.''

''I hope that a lesson has been learned from all of this,'' he said, criticizing those that he said prematurely lauded the discovery. ''They have wasted the time and the spiritual enthusiasm of their audiences.''

David M. Payne · 06-18-2003, 03:37 PM

Ah, where's Nomad when you really need him.

David

06-18-2003, 08:30 AM	#12
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	<puffs victory cigar> That's a massive trans-Pacific high-five to you, Toto! Thanks for your gracious acknowledgement, Haran. In fairness, the forger fooled everybody. Did anybody out there think the entire inscription was a fake? I didn't. Even Rochelle Altman thought only the second half was fake. She also thinks the Temple Ostracon is fake as well. I wonder if we'll get a hat trick here...... Could it be that preconceived notions influenced the group? I don't know, but I'm interested. How do you think they influenced the geochemical assay of the patina? Or this: And now finding that this "patina" could be easily rubbed off the letters, unmistakably fresh engraving marks could be seen. I leaned toward the authenticity of the James Ossuary inscription because of the heavy scholarly weight behind it. Like I said, wrong area of expertise. The inscription was never going to be decisive. "Thus in this case, it was geochemical and microscopic analysis--rather than scholarly erudition--that uncovered the truth." Vorkosigan, can you now share some of what you were told about the whole affair and by whom? No, and no. I'll PM you later. But you know, Haran, you nailed the forgery yourself, as I pointed out, when you connected the extant inscriptions in the references to the inscription on the ossuary. That was a real insight that I never could have made, even though you peeked over the edge of the abyss, and then refused to jump in. The Survey of Israel geologists had even misidentified the rock type. Unbelievable! Actually, I'm a little shocked that they were so unequivocal. Reading between the lines, it must have been a disappointingly bad fake to real experts gathering there, licking their chops over the opportunity to do some real sleuthing. So...I'm not all that interested in Shanks and Witherington. I expected them to dine on Corvus, although Shanks is such a prize asshole I am sure he'll find a way to bluff it out through a mixture of fervent denials and personal attacks. No, the real mystery here is Lemaire. What did he know, and when did he know it? I remain skeptical of his innocence. Vorkosigan

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06-18-2003, 08:40 AM	#13
godfry n. glad Banned Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: portland, oregon, usa Posts: 1,190	Well... What set my alarms off was the inappropriate opinion on the ossuary source from the IGS and then the hurried departure from Israel _without_ IAA even looking at it. In the case of such items, the IAA is _the_ definitive source, not the IGS. The ossuary was winging its way to Toronto before the IAA even knew it existed...fishy. And, it served a clear and specific agenda to do so. Even fishier. The bluster of Shanks at the hearing where he attacked the SOR representative for being dubious about promoting an item without provenence smacked of knowing and hiding the truth. Then, the IGS misidentified the type of rock the Jehoash Tablet was inscribed on? C'mon....these are _geologists_? That's what I mean about somebody at IGS having their head on the block. Is a horselaugh appropriate at this point? godfry

06-18-2003, 09:30 AM	#14
Sauron Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: In the dark places of the world Posts: 8,093	The James inscription cut through the ancient limestone box's patina, a thin coating acquired with age, the experts said, proving the writing was not ancient. Oops. ''The person who wrote the inscription was a person who thinks in modern Hebrew,'' he told a news conference in Jerusalem. ''A person thinking in biblical Hebrew would see it as ridiculous.'' Let's see. Oded Golan is in possession of two elaborate forgeries that he tried to pass off as genuine. "A person who thinks in modern Hebrew." Wonder who that could be? The artifact had been valued at $1 million to $2 million, based on the claimed link with Jesus. News flash: its revised value is somewhere between a Chicken McNuggets meal and a Powerball lottery ticket.

06-18-2003, 10:24 AM	#16
Sauron Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: In the dark places of the world Posts: 8,093	This has got to really burn the ossuary fanatics: Strangest of all was the "James Bond," the chalky material that coated the letters. It contained numerous microfossils called coccoliths, naturally occurring as foreign particles in chalk, but not dissolved by water. Hence it was clear that this was not a true patina formed by the surface crystallization of calcite, but rather powdered chalk--microfossils and all--that was dissolved in water and daubed over the entire inscription. [...] Indeed method of imitating ancient patina by preparing and applying a carefully designed mixture of generally similar material was also evident inside and between the letters of the Jehoash Inscription. The results obtained by Ayalon made that clear. His study concentrated on a telltale clue to the nature of authentic ancient patina: its isotopic ratio of oxygen provides a distinctive indication of the qualities of the water with which the patina was produced. So a knowledge of evolution and paleobiology/paleobotany (i.e., coccoliths), combined with the proper application of radioisotope dating, shot down the ossuary. :notworthy :notworthy NB - Those EVIL scientists. This just confirms that eevil-ution is of the DEVIL! These coco-fossil thingies were deposited by Noah's flood! That's why there are fossils on the tops of mountains! The earth is only 6000 years old! Radiocarbon dating is flawed!

06-18-2003, 11:25 AM	#17
godfry n. glad Banned Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: portland, oregon, usa Posts: 1,190	I shall enjoy watching Shanks tap-dance around this one. I wonder if he'll claim that the result is because the investigating commissions were "anti-Semitic"? Heh... It's not like he's not done it before. I can just see the fundies screaming, "That's those Jews! They're Jesus killers! Of course they'd try to debunk anything that even suggested that Jesus might have existed!" <deep sigh> godfry

06-18-2003, 03:37 PM	#20
David M. Payne Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The land of chain smoking, bible thumping, holy ro Posts: 1,248	Ah, where's Nomad when you really need him. David

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