daemon

You know, this argument seems to cropping up a bit, so I feel compelled to ask: is there any independent corroboration on the martyrdom of the various apostles, or is the Bible the only source of information on their activities?

GunnerJ

Worse than you think: the Bible deosn't even mention anyone killed specifically for claiming that Jesus was ressurected; that is, the martyrs of the Bible, Acts specifically, who were in a position to know whether Jesus actually rose from the dead were not killed for saying so, and recanting that belief wouldn't have even helped them.

lisarea

Yet you only provide a single example of a non-theist family.

While I'm sure this can be damaging, and I can't begin to know what it would feel like to be treated this way, it is still no excuse to paint a non-theists with such a broad brush.

My childhood family, for example, was non-theistic, and it is the most stable and happy family I've ever seen. My parents were happily married for about 30 years before my father died. There has never been any long-lasting discord among any of us. We get along remarkably well, we help each other as necessary, and we talk and seek out advice from each other. I probably spend about five hours or so per week average just talking on the phone to my three siblings. And I know several other non-theistic families who are similarly well-adjusted.

Obviously, I can't say that I understand your situation, but I can say that your generalizations based on it are incorrect. I would imagine that your parents marrying as teenagers might be a likely cause, for example.

K

lisarea:

Your brief description of your family sounds nearly identical to mine. The only difference is that my family was fairly devoutly Catholic. It is only one counter example, but it certainly would tend to nullify that whole correlation thing proposed by Breeze.

Liquidrage

I am clearly dissapointed though this is why I posted that Breeze should not have posted the credentials.

I will not waste space and bandwidth by reposting Breeze's points 1 and 2. I will just refer to them as 1 and 2.

Reponse to 1.
You are confusing something making you feel good with the truth. A belief in Allah makes many happy. It doesn't make Allah real. I get enjoyment out of watching movies. It doesn't make the movie true.
And as I eluded to earlier, if this is your basis for your faith then you have made a poor choice. For clearly Budhists exhibit a higher morale standard then Christians and reflect a greater inner peace then Christians.

Response to 2.
You aren't as objective as you think you are. You posted no objective evidence. You accept the Bible at face value even though a large collection of evidence has been assemebled that shows that at least parts of the Bible are not truthfull. Jesus says he is the son of god. Allah says Jesus was just a prophet. Who is right? They both have books, eh.
You start off accepted that which is nothing but an extraordinary claim. And this claim as no evidence which is why you can't present any.

There is a wealth of information contained within these walls that can show you Breeze that that which you accept without question should indeed be questioned. I suggest you read into early Christiantity and include some Old Testament as well.
After all, according to the Bible not only is Jesus the son of god but the OT is 100% accurate. And without the OT what reason is there to accept the claims of those that wrote down the stories which are supposedly the stories as told by those that knew the man named Jesus.

Goliath

DivineOb,

Unproven assertion.

Unproven assertion.

Regardless of my objections, the fact that people have died for their god-belief does not IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM prove that any gods exist.

Sincerely,

Goliath

lisarea

I certainly didn't mean to imply any direct correlation between religion and a happy homelife.

Some people will be happy regardless, some will be unhappy regardless.

Some people are better-adjusted with religion, some without.

The world would be a much better place if people would choose for themselves, and then stay out of everyone else's business.

Albion

Perhaps you should try reading "Oranges are Not the Only Fruit" to see the results for the stability of families when one member loves Jesus so much she really doesn't have time to love other humans. I think most of us know cases where that sort of thing happens, even if that story is a bit extreme.

frostymama

People wouldn't die for something that they knew was a lie?

Two words...

Heaven's Gate (heck they even castrated themselves)

DivineOb

Did you read what I wrote? At the bottom of the post I said "Now, where do you object? I'd prefer if you answered something other than premise one because that wasn't what you objected to in BT's statement about the earliy believers dying for a lie." In your response to BT you made an (implicit) comparison between the religious belief of the apostles and modern day muslims. This comparison only makes sense when assuming that a Jesus existed and that he had followers. I'm not interested in hearing objections to the first premise because obviously the argument is meaningless if you don't believe a teacher named Jesus existed and had followers.

Assuming that a Jesus existed and had followers, why is it not reasonable to say that those followers were in a unique position compared to later believers?

Quote:

Regardless of my objections, the fact that people have died for their god-belief does not IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM prove that any gods exist.

I never in even the slightest way hinted at the fact that it did. I have only been discussing the fact that, regardless of the divinity of Jesus, assuming the man existed, his early followers would have been in a unique position in that they could have possibly, in some possible scenario, if things had worked right, known whether Jesus really was executed and resurrected.

[ October 08, 2002: Message edited by: DivineOb ]</p>