Freethought & Rationalism Archive

BadBadBad · 11-08-2002, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HelenM:


I'm looking at the Christianity I know, that's all.

I'm not idealizing all Christians. What I object to is when other people vilify all Christians. If you consider any organization with a large number of people in it, some of them are going to be jerks, are going to be immature, are going to be obnoxious, etc. To infer from that that everyone in the organization is that way, or that the organization is to blame, might not be a fair assumption.

You are free to guess how other people feel about my posts. But I'm not going to assume anything unless/until I hear from them first-hand.

take care
Helen

The context of your church counselling concept in my thread still hasn't come out here. Not only were you pushing the church counselling, you expressed shock that the minister wouldn't focus on my atheism being the crux of the problem.

I don't have to assume how people react to your rosy christian comments. I just have to read their posts, including the many you got on church counselling, hell teaching to children, dragging kids to church, christian salivations over flesh sizzling and eyeball boilings, etc.

People aren't just making these things up. These vilifying comments about christians are based on real world experiences, and you have to put on pretty thick rosy glasses to deny how pervasive these attitudes are. I don't agree with the christian component of your comments, but I appreciate their value on this topic as a christian women's perspective. I compliment you on the rest of your advice. I've agreed with almost everything you've said.

HelenM · 11-08-2002, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by brettc:
The context of your church counselling concept in my thread still hasn't come out here. Not only were you pushing the church counselling, you expressed shock that the minister wouldn't focus on my atheism being the crux of the problem.

When I went to a Christian counselor with my husband for marriage counseling, it never came up. That's all I know.

Maybe that's a-typical though.

Actually, I also have experience of Christians not calling my husband evil and simply being friendly to him if they see him rather than trying to read him Bible verses.

Quote:

I don't have to assume how people react to your rosy christian comments. I just have to read their posts, including the many you got on church counselling, hell teaching to children, dragging kids to church, christian salivations over flesh sizzling and eyeball boilings, etc.

People aren't just making these things up. These vilifying comments about christians are based on real world experiences,

There is some exaggerating going on, in my opinion. Which is what happens when people are emotional and angry. And I understand that it's not always necessary or helpful to nit-pick over the accuracy of what a person says who is expressing their anger, say. However, in a serious discussion of how Christians might be expected to react, I think accuracy is worth aiming at.

Fwiw, I have never once questioned what someone said who has related an actual experience with a Christian. I wouldn't do that. It's only when people say such things as "Christians do/say XYZ" and it's not my experience, that I might question it.

Quote:

and you have to put on pretty thick rosy glasses to deny how pervasive these attitudes are.

Maybe my church is way better than some. Maybe what I see is different from what you'd see there. In which case I suppose saying I have on "rose-colored glasses" is one way of describing the difference

.

Quote:

I don't agree with the christian component of your comments, but I appreciate their value on this topic as a christian women's perspective. I compliment you on the rest of your advice. I've agreed with almost everything you've said.

Thanks, brettc. I wish you the best in dealing with your difficult situation.

take care
Helen

[ November 08, 2002: Message edited by: HelenM ]

muon · 11-08-2002, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oser:
I've avoided chiming in until now, but things seem to be escalating rapidly. I have three very short pieces of advice. I wouldn't delay on any of them.

1) Do *NOT* go to church. You must not allow yourself to be blackmailed. Your marriage will not be worth saving if your wife is using a divorce threat to force your behavior.
2) Insist on the two of you seeing a marriage councillor.
3) Get a lawyer. Explain what's going on, and figure out how to protect yourself if your wife files for divorce. And figure out whether you want to fight for custody if that happens.

I see you've chosen to go to church for the sake of peace. I wouldn't do that myself, but it's your decision---good luck!

Still, I really recommend you insist on marriage counselling (perhaps as a prerequisite for you going to church). And if your wife *ever* threatens divorce again, get a lawyer. Seriously.

BadBadBad · 11-08-2002, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HelenM:


There is some exaggerating going on, in my opinion. Which is what happens when people are emotional and angry. And I understand that it's not always necessary or helpful to nit-pick over the accuracy of what a person says who is expressing their anger, say. However, in a serious discussion of how Christians might be expected to react, I think accuracy is worth aiming at.

[ November 08, 2002: Message edited by: HelenM ]

You may be aiming at accuracy, but you haven't hit the mark yet. You can't dismiss all the reactions people get from christians as exaggerations. I can relate a whole lifetime of them. They're spread out in almost every posting and discussion on this board. Yeah they may be exaggerated with anger and frustration, but they're real, they're accurate, they're pervasisve among christians, and you're stuck with that legacy.

You're defending your rosy impressions of christions as serious, accurate, and authoritative. This is just more Honorable Theist Helen righteousness. That's what this thread is all about.

If your impresssion of christians is accurate, christianity shouldn't have the horrible history it does, and this discussion board shouldn't exist. You could almost say that history is defined by christian villany. This board is exists entirely due to real encounters with christian villains. Hence, I believe you are the one who has a problem with accuracy.

HelenM · 11-08-2002, 02:23 PM

For the sake of perspective -

Suppose I was on a Christian board and a wife like x-xian's was talking about his deconversion. Suppose some Christians said - yeah, I'd sure be worried if I were you. Now he's an atheist he'll be having affairs etc etc.

Do you think that's helpful or responsible? I don't. It's not necessarily true and it might make things worse by encouraging her to be afraid of things that won't really happen. It's irrelevant whether some Christian knew some atheist spouse who had an affair or not. That doesn't mean it's 'typical behavior'.

And so I'd oppose that kind of stereotypical mischaracterization just as I oppose stereotypical mischaracterizations here.

take care
Helen

The Other Michael · 11-08-2002, 03:54 PM

Hi Brett,

I'm afraid I'm with Helen on this point. Just as it is unfair to tar all atheists with the same brush (evil kitten-pie eating libertines that we are), so it is unfair to tar all Christians (or any other group) with the same brush.

Yes, Christianity has a lot to answer for, and there are a lot of Christians who also need to be called to account.

But there are Christians (and I've met a few) who don't fit the stereotype, and are as fine a batch of people as you could want to know.

Unfortunately, the ones that we tend to read about and interact with here many times don't fall into the latter category.

Even if what they believe is ludicrous and cognative dissonance-inducing, you've got to credit some of them for not letting that obstruct their basic goodness.

For example, I have the impression that if you were to have counseling from someone like Rev. Joshua (who is a regular here at IIDB) you'd likely get quite evenhanded treatment and zero preaching. Helen and her spouse seem to have been lucky enough to get a counselor who was also professional enough to leave his religion at the office door.

This shouldn't obscure the fact that the Christians that you and Darren are interacting with are acting obnoxious, judgemental, and close-minded.

Try not to let your anger color your perceptions and cause you to commit the same mistakes they do.

If Helen were acting in a manner counter to the SL&S forum guidelines I'd certainly join in on calling her on it - but in this instance at least I think she's being acceptably secular. But then I mod in MF&P and we're known for harbouring strange ideas and evil people in that forum.

I'd suggest that it would be more productive, if you are really having a problem with Helen's behavior, to ask the forum moderators to intervene - they are the ones who enforce the forum rules.

cheers,
Michael

pescifish · 11-08-2002, 04:01 PM

brettc and HelenM, please take your continued discussion off line of this thread.

I realize it's frustrating to be seeing the same issues continue to pop up without a chance to counter them. But I don't see that it will help x-xian's situation.

IMO, both of you have given x-xian some solid information, advice and support. x-xian has chosen a path for the moment and we should focus on his decision. As I did in brettc's thread, if x-xian, as thread originator, chimes in asks anyone to discontinue pursuing a particular approach, I will attempt to discourage it.

Bug, Problems and Complaints would be an appropriate place to open a thread about the role of our active theist members and pro-theistic advice here in Secular Life and Support.

Thank you,
pescifish, moderator

Goliath · 11-08-2002, 04:37 PM

Helen,

I must reiterate again that your opinion of what "typical xian behavior" is has no relevance whatsoever to the discussion at hand.

This is the Secular Lifestyle & Support forum. This is NOT the Uppity-Righteous-xian Lifestyle & Support forum.

Although you've been here longer than I have, I feel compelled to remind you that overly theistic advice is generally not asked for and not wanted here. This is something that you seem to have forgotten.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Goliath · 11-08-2002, 04:39 PM

pescifish,

D'oh! I made my post just before I flipped over to the fourth page of this thread and saw your post. I apologize.

Helen: If you wish to discuss this further, PM me.

Sincerely,

Goliath

pescifish · 11-08-2002, 05:46 PM

Actually, Goliath, I'd like to quote a bit of your post for additional clarification:

Quote:

Originally posted by Goliath:
I must reiterate again that your opinion of what "typical xian behavior" is has no relevance whatsoever to the discussion at hand.

brettc's wife and x-xian's wife have both demonstrated specific behaviors: unreasonable demands, insistence on particular fundamentalist churches, unilateral ultimatums and threats of divorce. We are not here to say "all christians are like that" or "most christians are wonderful".

The behaviors of these particular christians are the ones that are relevant. And more importantly, we are here to support the choices of our board members who are dealing with them.

[edited to add:]

Discussions not related to x-xian's situation should be handled off line of this thread privately, or possibly a thread in another forum.

and...

I understand, Goliath; I cross-posted earlier with The Other Michael.

[ November 08, 2002: Message edited by: pescifish ]

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

11-08-2002, 02:23 PM	#75
HelenM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Ill Posts: 6,577	For the sake of perspective - Suppose I was on a Christian board and a wife like x-xian's was talking about his deconversion. Suppose some Christians said - yeah, I'd sure be worried if I were you. Now he's an atheist he'll be having affairs etc etc. Do you think that's helpful or responsible? I don't. It's not necessarily true and it might make things worse by encouraging her to be afraid of things that won't really happen. It's irrelevant whether some Christian knew some atheist spouse who had an affair or not. That doesn't mean it's 'typical behavior'. And so I'd oppose that kind of stereotypical mischaracterization just as I oppose stereotypical mischaracterizations here. take care Helen

11-08-2002, 03:54 PM	#76
The Other Michael Honorary Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In the fog of San Francisco Posts: 12,631	Hi Brett, I'm afraid I'm with Helen on this point. Just as it is unfair to tar all atheists with the same brush (evil kitten-pie eating libertines that we are), so it is unfair to tar all Christians (or any other group) with the same brush. Yes, Christianity has a lot to answer for, and there are a lot of Christians who also need to be called to account. But there are Christians (and I've met a few) who don't fit the stereotype, and are as fine a batch of people as you could want to know. Unfortunately, the ones that we tend to read about and interact with here many times don't fall into the latter category. Even if what they believe is ludicrous and cognative dissonance-inducing, you've got to credit some of them for not letting that obstruct their basic goodness. For example, I have the impression that if you were to have counseling from someone like Rev. Joshua (who is a regular here at IIDB) you'd likely get quite evenhanded treatment and zero preaching. Helen and her spouse seem to have been lucky enough to get a counselor who was also professional enough to leave his religion at the office door. This shouldn't obscure the fact that the Christians that you and Darren are interacting with are acting obnoxious, judgemental, and close-minded. Try not to let your anger color your perceptions and cause you to commit the same mistakes they do. If Helen were acting in a manner counter to the SL&S forum guidelines I'd certainly join in on calling her on it - but in this instance at least I think she's being acceptably secular. But then I mod in MF&P and we're known for harbouring strange ideas and evil people in that forum. I'd suggest that it would be more productive, if you are really having a problem with Helen's behavior, to ask the forum moderators to intervene - they are the ones who enforce the forum rules. cheers, Michael

11-08-2002, 04:01 PM	#77
pescifish Beloved Deceased Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: rural part of los angeles, CA Posts: 4,516	brettc and HelenM, please take your continued discussion off line of this thread. I realize it's frustrating to be seeing the same issues continue to pop up without a chance to counter them. But I don't see that it will help x-xian's situation. IMO, both of you have given x-xian some solid information, advice and support. x-xian has chosen a path for the moment and we should focus on his decision. As I did in brettc's thread, if x-xian, as thread originator, chimes in asks anyone to discontinue pursuing a particular approach, I will attempt to discourage it. Bug, Problems and Complaints would be an appropriate place to open a thread about the role of our active theist members and pro-theistic advice here in Secular Life and Support. Thank you, pescifish, moderator

11-08-2002, 04:37 PM	#78
Goliath Banned Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Fargo, ND, USA Posts: 1,849	Helen, I must reiterate again that your opinion of what "typical xian behavior" is has no relevance whatsoever to the discussion at hand. This is the Secular Lifestyle & Support forum. This is NOT the Uppity-Righteous-xian Lifestyle & Support forum. Although you've been here longer than I have, I feel compelled to remind you that overly theistic advice is generally not asked for and not wanted here. This is something that you seem to have forgotten. Sincerely, Goliath

11-08-2002, 04:39 PM	#79
Goliath Banned Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Fargo, ND, USA Posts: 1,849	pescifish, D'oh! I made my post just before I flipped over to the fourth page of this thread and saw your post. I apologize. Helen: If you wish to discuss this further, PM me. Sincerely, Goliath

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.