abe smith

Just like to offer, as an "Insider", that psychiatrists and so-called "counselors", being "Outsiders" don't know Very Damn Mutch! and generally speaking they shd get out of the way & bugger off.

Keith Russell

Greetings:

Jane Goodall was on NPR last week, and she described a situation I had always suspected, but never heard evidence to support.

Chimpanzees, in the wild, had a war. Two subgroups of the same 'tribe' of chimps went to war against each other. They purposefully set out to kill members of the opposing sub-group.

We have known for decades (at least) that homosexuality is not confined to human beings. Several species of birds, as well as other mammals--and yes, primates--exhibit homosexual behaviour.

What we call 'human nature' is actually animal nature, folks.

It isn't always pretty, and it can often kill you (don't get caught, weaponless, out in the open in the middle of that chimp-war) but it is a fact, nonetheless.

Deny it, reject it, all you want.

Makes no difference.

Nature doesn't listen to us--but we'd better start listening to it.

Keith.

jaz

I think you misunderstood the paragraph you quoted. I was referring to homosexuality when I made the comments about “if it is a mistake by nature”. What causes homosexuality isn’t a major factor in whether a sex change is a misplaced correction or not.

Since when is knowing something deep down make it correct? Transsexuals know no more than anyone else about what causes their feelings. And that is what is been discussed.

I have to disagree. A misplaced correction is anything attempting to correct a problem but which isn’t actually dealing with a problem. If you make a spelling mistake do you fix the mistake or change the word next to it to hide the mistake? Essentially it’s the same thing. They’re using the operation to hide the mistake, rather than fixing the mistake.

At the moment, no. I understand why someone would choose to undergo the procedure because of that. But that doesn’t mean there isn’t one we haven’t discovered yet or haven't made work yet.

No, you can get whatever treatment you want. However if a result of that treatment is lying to me, I don’t have to like it.

Isn’t it a good enough reason that I simply disagree with the decision made? It’s not my only reason, but it’s the foundation of it.

[ October 12, 2002: Message edited by: jaz ]</p>

jaz

Brighid,

I have to say that I am reconsidering some of my my views because of your last post. One of the reasons I took so long to reply to this thread. I don’t agree with everything you said, and I’ll outline that below but you had some really good points. Thanks for adding them. I have actually written a couple of replies and realised they backed up what you are saying rather than my view.

I don’t consider gender to be THE defining factor of a persons character. It is one of many defining factors. I have no problem with someone of one gender having characteristics traditionally associated with the opposite gender. I think there are a lot of things we associate with one gender or the other which aren’t as exclusive as we like to think. Most characteristics are perfectly normal in any gender, they simply occur in various amounts for a variety of reasons. This in itself isn’t an issue at all. I don’t think that most of the characteristics of a transsexual will change after (or during) the change process. Gender seems to play more of a role in helping us to define ourselves rather than gender actually doing the defining. So the same would go if you or I were to undergo the whole change process. Fundamentally we would still be us. That doesn’t mean we wouldn’t change though. The different hormones would have to have an effect us and our behaviour and over time, that change in behaviour could very well change who we are.

I have to agree with you about the brain been the most important sexual organ. I don’t think that necessarily means that what the body is telling us is wrong however. My body is designed to be intimate with a man. Is my body wrong because my mind can’t accept that? No, it’s not and the suggestion that my mind is “broken” is a lot closer to the truth. I feel the same way about transsexuality.

I can certainly sympathise to a certain extent with transsexuals over the situation they find themselves in. I don’t think my views are based on wanting to force transsexuals to have the same experiences as I have. I’m sure it is a lot more confusing and difficult than been gay, and I don’t doubt that they don’t know how to make their mind accept their gender any more than I can make mine accept it is supposed to be attracted to men.

I should have clarified earlier in the thread, it’s not only the sex change I have a problem with. I consider the hormonal changes to be apart of that process. It’s possible that nothing of behavioural significance will change as a result of the whole process. However I haven’t claimed that I consider any possible changes to be major or a part of my reasoning for not associating with transsexuals.

Jaza.

[ October 12, 2002: Message edited by: jaz ]</p>

Janaya

Why must gender identity be eithor/or? The only time that it really makes a difference is in reproduction. At this time, all it takes is someone with functioning female parts and someone with functioning male parts to "get a room". So in reality that is the only time it truly matters.

I'm sure all of us can imagine a man that is unequivocally judged a man. Tall, muscular, high hormones, large package, agressive/protective nature, etc. Does this make him more of a male than one that is shorter, weaker, low hormones, yadayada? Only culturally. They are both lumped together as men because of their genitalia. This same argument can be applied to women as well. But in reality there are people that are much more strongly of their gender than others (and less). I think it is inaccurate to label people either one or the other.

What about herms? Why should they have to choose one or the other if they don't want to? Why can't they just be who they are?

Remember, they said the same thing about blacks. They said the same thing about gays. They said the same thing about atheists. What is important is a person's conduct. That is what should be judged.

Our culture makes our genitals much more important than they really are. I believe that gender & sexuality are a person's own decision. No, that's not quite right. It's more of a self discovery. And who am I to say what someone else discovers about themselves.

Peace,
Janaya

Amen-Moses

Thank you! I have been trying to form a response to this thread for several days and you have basically put my thoughts into far better words than I could manage.

Amen-Moses

Bree

Can I be a bitch for two seconds?

I find it intriguing that someone who belongs to a "minority" group could have such a huge prejudice against someone else within that minority group. Notice that we are referred to as "GLBT" (gotta love those acronyms).

I don't understand transgenderism because I am secure in my gender and couldn't possibly imagine what it's like NOT to be secure in my gender. But that doesn't mean that I'm afraid to associate with transgendered people. You can not understand how something works and still be okay with that person. After all, it's the PERSON, not the sexual orientation or the gender (biologically given or otherwise) that we're talking about, right?

I guess it all comes down to the fact that, as a lesbian, I absolutely hate it when people say that "nature doesn't make that kind of mistake" (in regards to my sexuality and my "choice"). I could never in my life imagine making the same sort of statement just because someone is differently gendered, instead of differently orientated.

[ October 13, 2002: Message edited by: Bree ]</p>

jlowder

Jaz,

I find your arguments completely unconvincing, IF they were intended to convince. However, I'm not even sure you really are trying to convince others of your opinion. In the closing of your post, you wrote the following.

Are you saying that your disagreement with transsexuals who get a sex change operation is just a matter of your subjective preferences, similar to how a very choosy ice cream eater simply likes one flavor of ice cream but not others? In that case, couldn't someone else just as easily say that they subjectively disagree with your lesbian behavior? Or are you saying that there is something inherently morally wrong in the act of sex change surgery itself?

Here's how I see it. Transsexuals know deep down that have a body with the wrong sex. I can only imagine how horrible that feeling must be. While many transsexuals try to deny their feelings--sometimes until they are in their 50s or 60s--eventually most either commit suicide or get the surgery. As an outsider, what strikes me is how drastic either of those options must be. And if the transsexual decides to pursue surgery, I would imagine that affects virtually every aspect of their lives, including their relationships with family members, their jobs, etc. Add on top of all that the financial cost of the surgery, as well as the extreme physical discomfort the surgery must cause. Given all of that, I think it is obvious that transsexuals sincerely believe they were born into a body with the wrong sex. I think it is highly arrogant for you to suggest that you somehow know better what they are feeling, or that they should not get the surgery. Indeed, your remarks strike me as just as arrogant as Christian fundamentalists who tell gays and lesbians that they do not really have homosexual desires, or that gays and lesbians should remain abstinent.

You say that surgery is a misplaced correction, since surgery treats the symptoms rather than the cause of the problem. But even if that is true, so what? Treating the symptoms is better than doing nothing at all, and there is no treatment (yet) that addresses what you believe is the root cause of the problem. Moreover, you have presented no evidence that any alternative treatment is more effective than surgery. In particular, counseling is not more effective--at least not yet. Transsexuals who get the surgery report feeling extremely satisfied and happy with their new body. They no longer have suicidal thoughts. Therefore, I see absolutely no justification for your refusal to associate with (or be friends with or allow your children to be around) transsexuals. Indeed, it seems to me that your view amounts to nothing more than prejudice.

I also do not understand your comment about "lying" to you. Lying to you about what? Are you claiming that most transsexuals are liars?

Jeffery Jay Lowder

[ October 14, 2002: Message edited by: jlowder ]

[ October 19, 2002: Message edited by: jlowder ]</p>