cunegund

While I'm not married and I don't have any children, I'm surrounded by friends and family who do have kids.

I live in Chicago and it would seem everyone around me is Catholic...usually the Irish or Polish variety I was born and raised Catholic and attended 16 years of Catholic School...a whole 'nother subject.

As I watch these kids grow up around me, I am beginning to get queasy with certain rituals...

The top of my list is confession/reconciliation.

I'm not sure I can do that to a child of mine if I marry a Catholic.

I don't judge anyone else, but I can't see a valid reason for this practice. Taking these tiny innocent kids and subjecting them to an authority figure and forcing them to tell this authority figure that they're "bad"...they've done something wrong.

I won't get into the oddness of their lack of choice in the matter...that they're incapable of being sin free...I' mean we're all sinners.

But my point is that this seems like a cruel practice to me. Little kids are guilty of nothing that desereves this sort of treatment...Is it just a form of indoctrination? Get 'em while they're young...before it's too late? (another subject that I find curious in the Catholic Educational system)

I'd be interested in anyone's opinion on this...especially someone who would defend this ritual. I can find numerous reasons why I don't like this...I can't seem to find one positive...other than it's an indoctrination tool for the parent who wants catholic kids.

I hope I've made sense...I'm a very new poster on the net.

Hannah

Ab_Normal

Welcome, cunegund! I am a recovering Roman Catholic (only 8 years of Catholic school, though ), and I am not raising my daughter in any religion.

Boy, I thought about confessing and it brought back some vivid memories of sitting nervously in the confessional, waiting for the priest to pronounce judgement on my sins. Shaking and sweating... I hated it when they got rid of "the box" and went to face to face confession. It was bad enough when I couldn't see the priest.

Oddly enough, I don't recall it having an effect on my behaviour. I don't recall ever contemplating "sinning", then changing my mind because I'd have to confess. So, at least in my case, it might have been a bit traumatic, but it didn't have a deterrent effect...

Biff the unclean

Hannah, you know, don't you, that most of us here aren't believers?

If you want to play a game you have to play by the games rules.
If you want to play chess you can't decide to move the pieces anyway you wish. Well, I guess you can, it's your board you can do what you want. But if you move your chess pieces as if they were checkers then you aren't playing chess any more.

Same with playing Catholic. If you want to play Catholic that's fine, have fun. But you can't play Catholic if you follow the Protestant rules.

If you don't like the rules of the game then don't play. There's nothing very strange about that.

And by the way, we aren’t all sinners. Not a man Jack out of all the Atheists here is a sinner.

cunegund

Hi Biff...

I'm confusing you...I'm sorry...in my thread of introduction Here I explained what my views are...

I'm an agnostic non-believer...I wrongly assumed that everyone would have read my introduction...I'm not sure why I assumed that...I apologize for being confusing...I should have explained myself better in this thread...especially since I'm VERY new around here...

I agree 100% with you about the "rules" ...that was one of my fundamental issues...

Hannah

Amos

Good point. It's a game and the game is played for keeps because it affects our mind.


Cunegund. Indoctrination is good only if later in life some sense can be made out of it because whatever is absorbed as data must someday be either understood or rejected as idol worship.

Confession is good and probably the very best sacrament in a land where courage is no longer a virtue.

That "we're all sinners" only means that we have become part of the religion system wherein the laws were given to Moses not to stop sin but for the conviction of sin (there is no sin outside of religion) . Therefore, and this only from the 'double hook' perspective, the Law does not aim to stop sin but it should "rouse in me every kind of evil desire" and so when the "law became alive sin came alive, and I died" from Romans 7:8-9. The point here is that the concept sin is created only to convict the outer man of sin (the cross of eternal salvation is for sinners only) and so set free the inner man (when the "I died;" I=ego). The technique used here is to write the Laws of Moses (and those of the CC) upon the human heart (as if in stone) from where they can convict the outer man.

The "cruel" aspect of confession will soon become a motive for revenge and most/some/all children will become roused by law to make the most out of the opportunity to sin. If they don't they will have a very boring life because it seems that all the goodies in life are taboos -- or is this just our reaction to the concept sin.

the_cave

Cunegund (ahem...)

Confession isn't required of children until they reach the age of reason, at least--I myself received it around the age of 8 or so. I didn't go again until I was confirmed, at age 14. I suppose this wasn't strictly speaking proper, but I suspect it was the influence of my somewhat unorthodox parents at work...at any rate, chances are unless for some reason you choose to attend an ultra-traditionalist parish (it doesn't sound like you will...), there won't be a lot of pressure for your children to confess once receiving the sacrament (which they can receive when you feel like it, or when they feel like it, it's up to you. There might be some pressure to do so, but you're the parent. They can't kick you out of church just because you won't take your kids to confession!)

They will need to receive it at least once in order to receive Communion. (For the record, my first Penance was a rather nice experience, actually. In fact, I don't remember any doom & gloom whatsoever.)

Also, unless someone commits a mortal sin (the list of which is subject to a great deal of opinion...), they don't need to go at all! If you don't think it's likely one of your kids could commit one, it's unlikely anyone would require them to attend confession. I certainly wasn't required by anyone, and to my knowledge no one complained.

(By the way, the "box" is still around--face-to-face confession is entirely optional.)

Technically speaking, a Catholic is only required to attend confession once a year, during Lent. Of course, you're also not supposed to receive Communion if you haven't confessed a mortal sin (however, I must add that this teaching is, I dare say, frequently ignored.) In my experience, you won't find many Catholics, unless they are explicitly traditional, keeping an eye on either your or your children's sacramental habits. It's largely between you and your God, practically speaking.

HelenM

Then...maybe that's a good reason not to marry a Catholic...

Helen

Rousseau_CHN

Rituals and Catholicsm.

I'd have that problem too. These Catholics go into a mindless rituals thinking that their sins are forgiven or that they have done enough to warrant a place in heaven.

They hear mass every sunday, and they start to believe that they are already holy and religious.

They confess their sins to a priests, and they start to believe, after praying ten Hail Marys, that they are already forgiven by God---who cares if my enemies do not forgive me, at least God has forgiven me.

(You made a mistake to anyone, you apologized to him, gaddamit.)

Rituals, rituals, rituals...all meaningless.

(In the past, You only have to give a tithe or indulgence and your seat in Heaven is already secured.)

the_cave

I don't find them meaningless, even without the religious dimension. The religious dimension involves apology to the divine, for marring the beauty of the creation in which we participate. It certainly doesn't mean we're forgiven by anyone we've sinned against! That's another matter entirely. Christianity does teach that one should forgive the sins of others, but confessing one's sins to god doesn't automatically accomplish this. If you want others to forgive your sins, you're still going to have to go to them (or hope they do it anyway...but how on earth is that any different than the way it's always been done, even by those who aren't religious??) "Who cares if my enemies do not forgive me" is not a Christian attitude--Christians do actively want and preach forgiveness in the world (which would presumably also involve people actively being sorry for how they've hurt other people.)

Sins against god are one thing; sins against another human being are another. True, if someone doesn't forgive you in this world, it won't keep you from heaven. But it's still important to be forgiven by them--which is exactly what an atheist would feel, isn't it? Indeed, theologically speaking, the form a single unit, since believers seek for ways to both forgive and be forgiven by their fellow human beings--it's a part and parcel of being forgiven by god. They are commanded to forgive, and to ask for forgiveness.

Confessing sins (whether to priest or to God) is also a reminder that sins are forgiveable--and that we ourselves are capable of forgiving.

But Cunegunde, Helen has a point--if you're that uncomfortable with Catholic beliefs, and you feel that much pressure to adhere to them, why are you talking yourself into it? I'd reiterate that there isn't a lot to be afraid of in my opinion, but I certainly wouldn't want to talk you into doing something you actually didn't want to do.

Rousseau_CHN

Sometimes being silent is not a sign of being profound, it's just a sign of being inarticulate.

Anyway, rituals are meaningless since they favor form over substance. People who go to confession came out feeling all forgiven and ready to commit sins again.

...and what kind of atonement is praying three Our Fathers?