Philosoft

Janaya,

This might be of no help at all, but have you considered what it fundamentally means to say, essentially, "a being who is part of God but not exactly or entirely God was sent by God to die for humanity's sins"? My understanding of this doctrine goes no further. Neither can I pretend it is intelligible simply because it is mandated by a particular belief system. Hence, I needn't concern myself with its implications. Seriously, try hard to separate your feelings about your "eternal soul" from your intellectual understanding of the doctrine of salvation. If it doesn't make sense, maybe it really doesn't make sense.

Kevin Dorner

As the responses to this thread are not the usual RRP fare, I'm promoting it to a real honest-to-goodness conversation and sending it to Misc. Religious Discussions. The thread is not closed (at the time of sending,) but just moved; simply click the link at the top to go to the Misc. Religious Discussions forum and access it there.

Janaya

I do appreciate all of the input. I think I'm about ready to give up. I guess I am trying to make sense out of something that is basically illogical.

Maybe it will make sense tomorrow. (doubtful)

Later everone,
Janaya

HelenM

Janaya

I don't think you're going to find 'a reason' that will take it from seeming illogical to you, to seeming logical. If that's what you were looking for I'm not sure it's out there...Christians accept it on faith.

I don't personally see that it's disprovable, but of course most people here don't believe it.

take care
Helen

christ-on-a-stick

My two cents:

To me, the reason that the concept fails miserably to make any sense whatsoever is as follows:

Supposedly Jesus had to die as a way of "paying for" our sins, i.e. paying a debt *for* us so that we don't have to. Not as a gift, although you could consider someone paying a debt for you a gift of sorts, but the main purpose of his death was to pay the price of sin (death) on our behalves.

So the way I see it, why should it make any difference whether we "accept" or acknowledge it - either the debt has been paid or it hasn't! As an analogy: You owe the bank a bunch of money. You refuse to pay it, or perhaps even don't believe that you owe it. A third party steps in, goes to the bank and pays the debt for you.

Now, as far as the bank is concerned, the debt is satisfied. Whether or not you even A) know it's been paid B) acknowledge it's been paid/thank the person for paying it or C) still deny that you ever owed anything at all, the bank isn't going to keep trying to collect from you and isn't going to impose any punishment on you for it not being paid, 'cuz it's BEEN PAID!!!

So the way I see it, for this "salvation plan" scenario to make any sense it would not make any difference whether one accepts it or not. The fact that the dogma comes with strings attached ("but you have to beeelieeeve") smacks of the tools of manipulation and coercion, not some Perfect Plan of the Omnimax God.

(As you said, Janaya, even as a mere mortal you can come up with a better plan than that! Which is why it makes a WHOLE lot more sense that it ISN'T the Perfect Plan of the Omnimax God, but rather the Imperfect and Quite Illogical Plan of Ignorant & Superstitious Middle Eastern Goatherders).

I ate Pascal's Wafer

I Agree COAS. It's Tough Playing Devil's Advocate When You're Trying To Explain An Illogical Belief.

-Nick

I ate Pascal's Wafer

Janaya, why are you so worried about it? You seem to be in the first stages of falling for Pascal's wager. As others have said, if the Christian belief system seems illogical to you, maybe it really is.

Also, why make such a big deal about the soul? There's not a shred of evidence that a supernatural entity called the "soul" exists and will live on after we die.

Assuming such an entity did exist, and assuming that there is a god, what do you have to worry about? If you honestly searched for the real truth, which you seem to be doing, and if you came by whatever belief you reached using your own mind you shouldn't worry about where you'd go. If a decent, loving god exists then he would understand your situation and let you come into heaven anyway. If the Christian god exists and would send you to hell for following your own mind, why exactly would you want to spend eternity worshipping him?

Don't let fear of eternal damnation contaminate your mind and rule your thoughts.

Good luck in your search, and good luck understanding Christian doctrine.

-Nick

NOGO

Janaya

I am going to show you how mixed up Christians are.

John 12
44 And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in me, does not believe in me but in Him who sent Me.

Verse 44 and many other verse say that what is required is not belief in Jesus but in God.


John 14
23 ... If anyone loves me, he will keep my word; and my Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
24 "He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent me.

So what you need to do is keep Jesus' word which he got from God.

John 6
Words to the Jews

49 "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.
50 "This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.
51 "I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh."
52 Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, "How can this man give us His flesh to eat?"
53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.
54 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
55 "For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.
56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me.
58 "This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever."


Words to the Disciples

59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?"
61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, "Does this cause you to stumble?
62 "What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before?
63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.

Jesus says to a large audience that to be saved you need to eat his flesh and drink his blood and that is what Christians do during mass every week. They reenact the symbolic eating of Jesus' flesh and drinking his blood.

But is this what Jesus meant?
When he spoke privately to his disciples Jesus explains what he meant. Note in particular verse 63.
"the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life."

So Jesus is simply saying that if you keep the commandments that he has given which are from God then you will have eternal life.

Edited to add
John's whole approach is for the "word" of God.
Logically then the resurrection was just proof that what Jesus was saying was true and not just as joke.

That to me nullifies this business to sacrifice for sin. Jesus also said that he would shed his blood for the multitude and Hebrews 9 explains it at length.

If this does not seem to make sense it is because it doesn't. There are two two distinct versions.

1) The words of Jesus are spirit and life for anyone who keeps them.
2) Jesus' death saves.

[ September 20, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]</p>

Janaya

I think people are making some incorrect assumptions about me so I'll give ya'll some background.

I was born and raised in the Bible Belt and grew up in a mainstream Methodist family. I was 'saved' by my boyfriend when I was only 15 and attended a Southern Baptist church for several years. By the time I was 25 or so I had decided that the whole thing was pretty much bogus. The only thing I continued to believe in was God, but not the God of religions. I felt if he existed God was too big for that though my ideas about God's specific attributes were rather vague. If asked about my beliefs at that time I would probably have just shrugged my shoulders. (kind of agnostic I guess)

A little over a year ago I started to wonder what it was I really believed. I felt I couldn't just have 'no opinion' in the matter so I got on the internet and started reading. I quickly determined that I was really an atheist. The problem I have been struggling with since then is to bring my thinking (and emotions) in line with that belief (or rather non-belief). Also I guess I have a fear that they might be right. I had read a lot about the basic problems with Christianity, however, I still felt (not thought) that there just might be something valid with the core belief.

The other day it occurred to me that Christians actually present Jesus' sacrifice as a 'fact'. I thought, 'If it is a fact, then how can my personal belief about this 'fact' 2000 years after the 'fact' change this 'fact'. Once I realized that this is what Christians are actually saying I laughed my ass off. I had finally found something that would relieve my irrational fear. Something that would dislodge the last claw of Christianity from my mind.

I then wanted to see if someone could explain this 'changing of the facts' phenomenon to my satisfaction. I also wanted to make sure there was not a flaw in my reasoning. I wasn't sure if I would be taken seriously either. I didn't expect so many responses so quickly. Thanks everyone.

Of course, now I'm even angrier with the Christian religion. The whole thing simply misleads people constantly. I feel like I have been betrayed (or made a fool of). They portray this religion like it is the most wonderful, life saving, loving, American thing on earth. When the reality is just the opposite.

I am so glad I have found my 'silver bullet'.

Thanks,
Janaya

Janaya

I think people are making some incorrect assumptions about me so I'll give ya'll some background.

I was born and raised in the Bible Belt and grew up in a mainstream Methodist family. I was 'saved' by my boyfriend when I was only 15 and attended a Southern Baptist church for several years. By the time I was 25 or so I had decided that the whole thing was pretty much bogus. The only thing I continued to believe in was God, but not the God of religions. I felt if he existed God was too big for that though my ideas about God's specific attributes were rather vague. If asked about my beliefs at that time I would probably have just shrugged my shoulders. (kind of agnostic I guess)

A little over a year ago I started to wonder what it was I really believed. I felt I couldn't just have 'no opinion' in the matter so I got on the internet and started reading. I quickly determined that I was really an atheist. The problem I have been struggling with since then is to bring my thinking (and emotions) in line with that belief (or rather non-belief). Also I guess I have a fear that they might be right. I had read a lot about the basic problems with Christianity, however, I still felt (not thought) that there just might be something valid with the core belief.

The other day it occurred to me that Christians actually present Jesus' sacrifice as a 'fact'. I thought, 'If it is a fact, then how can my personal belief about this 'fact' 2000 years after the 'fact' change this 'fact'. Once I realized that this is what Christians are actually saying I laughed my ass off. I had finally found something that would relieve my irrational fear. Something that would dislodge the last claw of Christianity from my mind.

I then wanted to see if someone could explain this 'changing of the facts' phenomenon to my satisfaction. I also wanted to make sure there was not a flaw in my reasoning. I wasn't sure if I would be taken seriously either. I didn't expect so many responses so quickly. Thanks everyone.

Of course, now I'm even angrier with the Christian religion. The whole thing simply misleads people constantly. I feel like I have been betrayed (or made a fool of). They portray this religion like it is the most wonderful, life saving, loving, American thing on earth. When the reality is just the opposite.

I am so glad I have found my 'silver bullet'.

Thanks,
Janaya