Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The Other Michael · 05-16-2002, 05:05 AM

<a href="http://www.npr.org/programs/morning/features/2002/may/mormons/index.html" target="_blank">NPR article</a>

Attempts at convincing the Federal government to sell a national historic site having failed, the 7 Mormon members of Congress have sponsored a bill that would force the United States to sell the site to the LDS church.

There's also mention in the article that Salt Lake City sold a public street to the LDS, and now you (Joe/Jane Public) can be evicted/arrested if you do something that, while legal elsewhere in the city, riles the Mormons.

Wonderful.

Michael

(edited to add the following URL for the public street case)
<a href="http://www.aclu.org/news/2001/w081401a.html" target="_blank">ACLU page on public street in SLC</a>

[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: The Other Michael ]

Toto · 05-16-2002, 09:11 AM

<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=000388&p=" target="_blank">Old closed thread on this topic</a> (unfortunately the main link in it seems to be dead.)

Toto · 06-16-2002, 06:45 PM

<a href="http://utahatheistnews.home.att.net" target="_blank">Utah Atheists</a> maintains a <a href="http://utahatheistnews.home.att.net/martin.html" target="_blank">page</a> on this issue (Martin's Cove), with reference material, history, and a petition you can sign.

[ June 16, 2002: Message edited by: Toto ]

Oresta · 06-17-2002, 04:54 AM

This post won't carry this discussion forward, but I must tell about the time I was in Mormon Square, where alcohol, caffein and tobacco are forbidden, to do genealogical research at the LDS Library. Our van was parked at the library curb and among the camping gear was a near-full jug of wine that, unbeknownst to us, had rolled down into the cargo door well. When I opened the cargo door to get my research files, the jug rolled out onto the pavement and smashed. I fled, leaving my husband to clean up the mess, reeking of

alcohol.

Groucho · 06-17-2002, 05:01 AM

Living in Salt Lake, folks make a unnecessarily big deal about the section of Main Street that the church bought a couple years ago and turned into a pedestrian mall. It's a huge improvement...I walk there almost every day. Before it was a busy street, so it's not like you could walk around drinking and smoking there before anyway.

As far as I know, only one person has been kicked out of there, for wearing a t-shirt that read "I believe in 10% beer and 3.2% tithing." There's a huge error in that statement that I'll leave as an exercise for the reader to figure out.

RufusAtticus · 06-17-2002, 08:09 AM

Isn't there some court challenge dealing with that square, because the government pays to Church to let people walk through there?

Toto · 06-17-2002, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RufusAtticus:
Isn't there some court challenge dealing with that square, because the government pays to Church to let people walk through there?

Check the link in the top post on this:

<a href="http://www.aclu.org/news/2001/w081401a.html" target="_blank">http://www.aclu.org/news/2001/w081401a.html</a>

I would say that being kicked out of a mall for wearing a message tshirt like the "beer - tithing" comparison above is a clear challenge to the First Amendment.

never been there · 06-17-2002, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Groucho:
As far as I know, only one person has been kicked out of there, for wearing a t-shirt that read "I believe in 10% beer and 3.2% tithing." There's a huge error in that statement that I'll leave as an exercise for the reader to figure out.

That's easy. 10% beer is actually a barley wine. It ain't beer, anyhow.

Toto · 06-17-2002, 09:24 PM

The House has approved the land grab.

<a href="http://www.au.org/press/pr0617022.htm" target="_blank">From Americans United for Separation of Church and State</a>:

Quote:

Americans United for Separation of Church and State criticized the House of Representatives for approving a bill that would require the federal government to sell over 900 acres of federal land in Wyoming to the Mormon Church. The measure passed on a voice vote this afternoon.

H.R. 4103, sponsored by Rep. Jim Hansen (R-Utah), would sell 940 acres of land in Wyoming to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Under the terms of the legislation, no other parties would be permitted to make offers on the property, which is currently under the control of the U.S. Bureau of Land Management.

Americans United said the proposal raises serious constitutional questions and should have been defeated.

"This bill is a sweetheart deal for one faith tradition," said AU's Lynn. "If the Constitution means anything, it means that Congress can't single out one religion for special treatment."

The church has a special interest in the land because of Mormon history. In 1856, a group of Mormon settlers died on the land -- known as Martin's Cove -- after a snowstorm blanketed the area. As a result, the church now considers the area sacred.

AU's Lynn said there are several reasons why Hansen's proposal to sell Martin's Cove violates the First Amendment:

* The U.S. Supreme Court has said Congress cannot give benefits to religious institutions through �a special and unusual Act of the legislature.� The Martin�s Cove legislation gives benefits solely to one religious group by selling land in a non-competitive process.

* The Supreme Court has ruled that government action is unconstitutional if its purpose is religious, not secular. The Mormon Church wants to buy the land because it considers Martin�s Cove to be sacred. As such, there is no secular purpose for the sale since it can only be intended to benefit the Mormon religion.

* The Supreme Court has held that the First Amendment prohibits the government from passing legislation that a reasonable observer would perceive as favoring a particular religion. A reasonable observer would not view passage of this bill as anything other than favoring the Mormon Church.

AU's Lynn said the bill undermines basic constitutional principles.

"This bill would sell a national site to a religious group for a religious purpose," Lynn said. "The First Amendment requires government neutrality on religion, not special treatment for certain religious groups. The Senate should do what the House did not -- reject this legislation."

05-16-2002, 05:05 AM	#1
The Other Michael Honorary Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In the fog of San Francisco Posts: 12,631	Mormons attempt historic site land grab <a href="http://www.npr.org/programs/morning/features/2002/may/mormons/index.html" target="_blank">NPR article</a> Attempts at convincing the Federal government to sell a national historic site having failed, the 7 Mormon members of Congress have sponsored a bill that would force the United States to sell the site to the LDS church. There's also mention in the article that Salt Lake City sold a public street to the LDS, and now you (Joe/Jane Public) can be evicted/arrested if you do something that, while legal elsewhere in the city, riles the Mormons. Wonderful. Michael (edited to add the following URL for the public street case) <a href="http://www.aclu.org/news/2001/w081401a.html" target="_blank">ACLU page on public street in SLC</a> [ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: The Other Michael ]</p>

06-16-2002, 06:45 PM	#3
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	<a href="http://utahatheistnews.home.att.net" target="_blank">Utah Atheists</a> maintains a <a href="http://utahatheistnews.home.att.net/martin.html" target="_blank">page</a> on this issue (Martin's Cove), with reference material, history, and a petition you can sign. [ June 16, 2002: Message edited by: Toto ]</p>

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05-16-2002, 09:11 AM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=000388&p=" target="_blank">Old closed thread on this topic</a> (unfortunately the main link in it seems to be dead.)

06-17-2002, 04:54 AM	#4
Oresta Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Detroit, MI Posts: 1,107	This post won't carry this discussion forward, but I must tell about the time I was in Mormon Square, where alcohol, caffein and tobacco are forbidden, to do genealogical research at the LDS Library. Our van was parked at the library curb and among the camping gear was a near-full jug of wine that, unbeknownst to us, had rolled down into the cargo door well. When I opened the cargo door to get my research files, the jug rolled out onto the pavement and smashed. I fled, leaving my husband to clean up the mess, reeking of alcohol.

06-17-2002, 05:01 AM	#5
Groucho Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Freedonia Posts: 10	Living in Salt Lake, folks make a unnecessarily big deal about the section of Main Street that the church bought a couple years ago and turned into a pedestrian mall. It's a huge improvement...I walk there almost every day. Before it was a busy street, so it's not like you could walk around drinking and smoking there before anyway. As far as I know, only one person has been kicked out of there, for wearing a t-shirt that read "I believe in 10% beer and 3.2% tithing." There's a huge error in that statement that I'll leave as an exercise for the reader to figure out.

06-17-2002, 08:09 AM	#6
RufusAtticus Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NCSU Posts: 5,853	Isn't there some court challenge dealing with that square, because the government pays to Church to let people walk through there?

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