Abu Ali

You may be able to fool those who cannot speak Arabic, but you cannot say this with a straight face to anyone who speaks the language - as I do!

The word is “Qaatiloo” the imperative form of the verb “Qaatala” which means ‘to fight’ – ‘to try to kill’. It comes from the verb “Qatala” to kill or murder. It is the 3rd form of the verb, which adds a meaning of doing the action with someone i.e. “To try and kill someone” thus it means “TO FIGHT” pure and simple. There is absolutely NO WAY on earth it can mean “Peaceful Striving”

It is so sad to see you desperately clutching at air trying to make Islam the “Peaceful” religion you want it to be. Yes it really is sad – because I was there too. I know how much you want to show the world that Islam reflects the peace and love you have in your heart.

But I’m afraid you are committing the greatest sin of all – you are lying to yourself!

I AM A MUSLIM and an ARAB and have studied and been educated in ISLAM and ARABIC language.

Just like you and many other Muslims out there I am deeply troubled by the negative image of Islam.

But unlike you and others – I have finally admitted to my self the truth that Islam DOES contain a great deal that in NO WAY can be regarded as Peaceful or Tolerant.

The fact is it contains a great deal of hostile and aggressive verses and hadith that are very intolerant of non-Muslims and some things, which are downright barbaric and cruel.

The REAL question is what are we going to do about this situation.

1. Tell it like it is and join Bin Laden?

2. Lie to ourselves and to others?

3. ??????????????????

Abu Ali

[ August 21, 2002: Message edited by: Abu Ali ]</p>

ansarthemystic

I can tell that you did not pay full attention to my post!

The word "qaatiloo" carries BOTH the connotations of "fight" and "strive". Based on 2:190: "Fight in the way of Allah with those who fight you", we can see that fighting is only in self-defense. Bsaed on the translation of jihad into "struggle", then further reading will show you that it does not have to mean violent struggle, but it will mean violent struggle if the muslims are attacked first.

And yes I too struggled with the negative "image" of islam, simply because this image is not what islam is!You say that you are a muslim, but only Allah(SWT) knows what is in your heart. And Islam is a religion ABOUT peace and submission to Allah(SWT), as well as FOR peace.Therefor eviolent struggle is inevitable, and removing corruption is a duty that no human being, muslim or not, should shy away from.
And please DON'T talk to me about ahadith. I am well aware that they contain violence, but ahadith are NOT Islamic, yet ISLAMIST!

ASSALAMU ALAIKUM RAHMATULLAH HIBARAKATU

Abu Ali

No it doesn't. Show me any place that 'Qaatiloo' is used to mean 'strive'

Erm... that means fight - as you have just said. So let me say again very clearly "Show me any place in the Qur'an where Qaatiloo means strive!"

OK, what's that got to do with the meaning of Qaatiloo??????

What is based on the translation of jihaad??? What are you talking about????

What are you talking about? What does all this have to do with the meaning of Qaatiloo?

Verse 190 of al-Baqara says;

"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you..."

It doesn't mean "Strive peacefully against those who fight you" - does it?

So what are you trying to say. I'm serious, I don't know what point you are trying to make?

So back to your original point that the word "Qatiloo" in verse 29 of sura 9 means "To Strive Peacefully"

No it doesn't - it means fight - pure and simple.

"Fight (Qatiloo) those who belive not in God nor the last day..."

Show me one place anywhere where Qatiloo means "Strive Peacefully."

Show me?

Do you speak Arabic? Do you have a clue what you are talking about?

YES I AM A MUSLIM.

But I have come to the conclusion that The Qur'an was meant for the harsh barbaric society that it came and no-longer applies in our day and age!

I believe In God! I believe in Muhammad and ALL His prophets. However I believe man has evolved over the last 1400 years and Muhammad's message was to the people of his time and was never meant to be applied now.

I also believe that whatever path man chooses to follow to his Lord, it will be accepted so long as his heart is sincere.

I don't mind what you believe - it's up to you. Actually I tip my hat to you "Submitters" at least you had the guts to reject the Hadith. But I hate lies and deception and you guys are still trying to lie about the Qur'an.

Yes the Qur'an has some wonderfullly peacful, and morally true teachings - but it also has some harsh and violent parts as well as many things that are no longer morally acceptable.

For example 4:34 says that you can hit your wife. Well I'd LOVE to hear you explain THAT one.

Or does the word "Udruboo" = "Hit", really mean to "Stroke lovingly!"

Abu Ali

[ August 21, 2002: Message edited by: Abu Ali ]</p>

ansarthemystic

Br. Abu Ali,you said:

What are you talking about? What does all this have to do with the meaning of Qaatiloo?

ANSAR: You know as well as I do that certain Arabic words take on different meanings according to the context. "Qaatiloo" in verse 190 os surat-al-baqara can mean "strive" and "fight". It never means "kill" like "qaatala" or "qatala" do. "Qaatiloo" as used in its derivative form in verse 191 means "kill" or "you may kill."

Verse 190 of al-Baqara says;
"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you..."
It doesn't mean "Strive peacefully against those who fight you" - does it?

ANSAR:I must apologize for my embellishment. Based on the knowledge that "fight" means "fight in the way of Allah" I assumed that "qaatiloo" means "strive". I have four to five Arabic speaking sources besides myself who say I am right. "Strive peacefully" is my own interpretation based on the meaning of "fight". You will never be able to conclusively prove me wrong,nor will I be able to conclusiovely prove you wrong on this matter since it is still debatable.

So what are you trying to say. I'm serious, I don't know what point you are trying to make?
So back to your original point that the word "Qatiloo" in verse 29 of sura 9 means "To Strive Peacefully"
No it doesn't - it means fight - pure and simple.

ANSAR:"Qaatiloo" DENOTES "FIGHT".In this verse "qaatiloo" CONNOTES "STRIVE".Learn the difference between connote and denote.

"Fight (Qatiloo) those who belive not in God nor the last day..."
Show me one place anywhere where Qatiloo means "Strive Peacefully."
Show me?
Do you speak Arabic? Do you have a clue what you are talking about?

ANSAR:I don't think I speak Arabic as well as you do since you are an Arab, and I am not. But you have made a grave error in assuming that a Muslim does not have access to Arabic language knowledge and materials AND that I lack Arabic-speaking sources. What is your agenda in attacking my position?

YES I AM A MUSLIM.

ANSAR:What you are doing is called argument using the appeal to authority. You have tried to set yourself up as an authority to make yourself more credible,by saying that you are an ARAB AND A MUSLIM, TRAINED in ISLAM AND ARABIC LANGUAGE.EVENTUALLY YOUR ANTAGONIZING ME WILL BOIL DOWN TO HESAID/SHE SAID.One of us is lying, or BOTH of us have the wrong understanding. I readily admit that I am not an Arab or a fluent Arabic speaker; but your attempt has failed for reasons I already stated above.

But I have come to the conclusion that The Qur'an was meant for the harsh barbaric society that it came and no-longer applies in our day and age!

ANSAR: THIS conclusion is anti-Islamic, b/c the Qur'an is universal(all times, all peoples).

I believe In God! I believe in Muhammad and ALL His prophets. However I believe man has evolved over the last 1400 years and Muhammad's message was to the people of his time and was never meant to be applied now.

ANSAR: you believe but not as Muslims believe, you are in a minority of Muslims.

I also believe that whatever path man chooses to follow to his Lord, it will be accepted so long as his heart is sincere.

ANSAR:THIS IS ALSO WRONG, B/C Allah's mercy will not allow people to be in hellfire eternally, but people while they posses knowledge of the TRUTH and yet ignore it are in error.

I don't mind what you believe - it's up to you. Actually I tip my hat to you "Submitters" at least you had the guts to reject the Hadith. But I hate lies and deception and you guys are still trying to lie about the Qur'an.

ANSAR:I fail to understand why any Muslim who has the courage to reject hadith are now labeled "Submitters". Never assume, brother! I am not a "Submitter", but a MUSLIM, and you are right about the fact that some "Submitters" are lying about the Qur'an.

Yes the Qur'an has some wonderfullly peacful, and morally true teachings - but it also has some harsh and violent parts as well as many things that are no longer morally acceptable.

ANSAR: YES THE QUR'AN HAS VIOLENCE, but does it CONDONE violence? No! There is nothing in the Qur'an that can be said to be morally unacceptable, especially in the light that human morality is indeed subjective and arbitrary.

For example 4:34 says that you can hit your wife. Well I'd LOVE to hear you explain THAT one.
Or does the word "Udruboo" = "Hit", really mean to "Stroke lovingly!"

ANSAR; the word "udruboo" is not in the Arabic Qur'an since this word refers to beating men! The word that refers to beating women is there: "idrubuhunna". Both these words come from "daraba", as you well know, and means many things according to context. It does NOT mean to beat lightly but to leave them(your wives) after certain measures have been taken to repair marital discord or rebellion("nushuz"). I provide three links that explain three interpretations of surat-al-Nisa, ayah 34:

<a href="http://www.submission.org/women/beating.html" target="_blank">http://www.submission.org/women/beating.html</a>

<a href="http://www.answering-christianity.com/beating_no.htm" target="_blank">http://www.answering-christianity.com/beating_no.htm</a>

<a href="http://www.answering-christianity.com/beating_yes.htm" target="_blank">http://www.answering-christianity.com/beating_yes.htm</a>

In light of the rest of the Qur'an which position do you think is the right one?

wassalam

Abu Ali

[ August 31, 2002: Message edited by: ansarthemystic ]</p>