Freethought & Rationalism Archive

-DM- · 12-20-2002, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pseudonymph:
I do not believe that by "turning the other cheek" that it is implied that you are opening yourself to more pain or abuse in every situation.

"Every situation"? Of course not! That is my point. The point is that you would have to place limits on this behavior because in some situations it would be very dangerous to "turn/offer the other cheek."

No parent in his/her or her right mind would want his/her child to "turn/offer the other cheek" in all situations.

Keep in mind that Jesus did not, if he said this at all and so far as we know, qualify his statement with any kind of commonsensical limitations. That is my point as to why it is ridiculously impractical.

Quote:

MT 5:39-42
But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

Quote:

LK 6:29
Whoever hits you on the cheek, offer him the other also; and whoever takes away your coat, do not withhold your shirt from him either.

Quote:

Pseudonymph:
I believe that it can be inferred to turn the other cheek, as in to look away and not continue to antagonize the situation.

One of the principles of Bible exegesis is to neither add to nor subtract from the plain meaning of the words unless there is some compelling reason (such as context) to do otherwise. If Jesus had meant "look away" rather than "turn/offer the other cheek," then he could have and should have said so.

Quote:

I would not of course allow my assailant to harm me again in that way. I do think, however, that the idea of turning the other cheek can be a useful way to check yourself and pick your battles.

There are many useful techniques for checking oneself and for picking one's battles. Turning/offering the other cheek when someone has just slapped you on the other cheek is quite unwise in many situations, in my opinion. As I said, you would have to put limits on this behavior, and it looks, now, as if you agree.

-Don-

catman · 12-20-2002, 02:59 PM

There is a lot of good to be glean from the bible--even if I do become a born again atheist. You must realize that Jesus always spoke in exagerations--or using hyperbole. Always.

When he says in Luke 14:26: He that does not hate his brother, sister, and yea his onwself too to follow me--he cannot be my disciple. (not exact wording--too lazy to look it up)

He is not telling you to hate anyone--but that he must be at the fore most front of your life. But since he didn't clarify it that way--atheist can do whatever they want with the verse--I did when I was an atheist--which I might become again next Friday.

Vorkosigan · 12-20-2002, 03:17 PM

Actually, there's a certain irony in that Pseudonymph has picked an interpolated passage that originated much later than the gospels for this topic....

Philosophy aside, I love the OT tales. The story of David is a great epic that I read many times as a kid.

catman · 12-20-2002, 03:27 PM

read about ol David did you? What price did he have to pay for his first wife, daughter of Saul? And what did King David do to get chastised by this first wife to where he would no longer have sexual intercourse with her?

All children should know the answers to these questions--especially one who has read the story over and over.

[ December 20, 2002: Message edited by: catman ]

Goliath · 12-20-2002, 03:30 PM

Pseudonymph,

Every scrap of good advice from the bible (what little there is of it) seems to hardly be original. So, although there are significant and interesting portions of the bible, it's best to look elsewhere to the original sources to get the good stuff without all of the bigotry with which the bible is filled to the brim.

Sincerely,

Goliath

ShottleBop · 12-20-2002, 03:50 PM

Isaiah 58:

Quote:

1 "Shout it aloud, do not hold back. Raise your voice like a trumpet. Declare to my people their rebellion and to the house of Jacob their sins.

2 For day after day they seek me out; they seem eager to know my ways, as if they were a nation that does what is right and has not forsaken the commands of its God. They ask me for just decisions and seem eager for God to come near them.

3 'Why have we fasted,' they say, 'and you have not seen it? Why have we humbled ourselves,
and you have not noticed?' "Yet on the day of your fasting, you do as you please and exploit all your workers.

4 Your fasting ends in quarreling and strife, and in striking each other with wicked fists. You cannot fast as you do today and expect your voice to be heard on high.

5 Is this the kind of fast I have chosen, only a day for a man to humble himself? Is it only for bowing one's head like a reed and for lying on sackcloth and ashes? Is that what you call a fast, a day acceptable to the LORD ?

6 "Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen:
to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free
and break every yoke?

7 Is it not to share your food with the hungry and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter-
when you see the naked, to clothe him, and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?

8 Then your light will break forth like the dawn,
and your healing will quickly appear; then your righteousness [1] will go before you, and the glory of the LORD will be your rear guard.

9 Then you will call, and the LORD will answer;
you will cry for help, and he will say: Here am I. "If you do away with the yoke of oppression,
with the pointing finger and malicious talk,

10 and if you spend yourselves in behalf of the hungry and satisfy the needs of the oppressed,
then your light will rise in the darkness,
and your night will become like the noonday.

-DM- · 12-20-2002, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by catman:
There is a lot of good to be glean from the bible--even if I do become a born again atheist. You must realize that Jesus always spoke in exagerations--or using hyperbole. Always.

That, in itself, is an exaggeration--a big exaggeration--unless you believe the following samples (of many more which could be cited) to be exaggerations (and if you do, most Christians would likely disagree with you that these represent exaggerations on the part of Jesus even though those same Christians often do not put these into practice):

MT 5:22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment;

MT 5:37 Say only yes if you mean yes, and no if you mean no.

MT 5:43 Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.

MT 6:1 Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.

MT 6:2 Whenever you give alms, do not sound a trumpet before you.

MT 6:6 Pray to your Father in secret.

MT 6:7 When you are praying, do not heap up empty phrases.

MT 6:18 Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth.

MT 7:1 Do not judge, so that you may not be judged.

MT 7:6 Do not give what is holy to dogs.

MT 7:12 In everything, do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

MT 7:15 Beware of false prophets.

JN 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.

JN 8:49 I honor my Father.

JN 8:50 I do not seek my own glory.

JN 10:11 I am the good shepherd. The shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

JN 14:1 Do not let your hears be troubled. Believe in God, believe in me.

Quote:

When he says in Luke 14:26: He that does not hate his brother, sister, and yea his onwself too to follow me--he cannot be my disciple. (not exact wording--too lazy to look it up)

He is not telling you to hate anyone--but that he must be at the fore most front of your life. But since he didn't clarify it that way--atheist can do whatever they want with the verse--I did when I was an atheist--which I might become again next Friday.

This is a typical apologetic how-it-might-have-been "argument" to get Jesus off the hook for what he allegedly said. Of course, the fact of the matter is that we do not know with certainty what Jesus said and didn't say, or exactly what was meant by what he allegedly did say. My take on it is that much of what Jesus allegedly said is fiction, that many of the alleged sayings of Jesus were popular sayings of the day which were put into his mouth by the Gospelists.

-Don-

doodad · 12-20-2002, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SirenSpeak:
Hello everyone...this is my first topic in this forum, so please go easy if this is the wrong place.

As you can tell from the above subject, I am interested in knowing what, if anything you as a non-Christian can take from the bible as being constructive advice, or perhaps a feasible occurance of significance.

For example, and to get things started...I have always liked the story about the adulteress.

Now I'm not saying this is any evidence of...well anything really. I'm just saying there appears to be an interesting lesson here.

"Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone"

I think that says quite a lot. So what do you think? Do you think any good or accuracy can come from such a book? Even in the purely historical sense?

Thanks for your time and I'm hoping this will be an interesting discussion.

I think that some of the Ten Commandments are good advice in secular terms. One should not murder, steal, lie, covet, or commit adultery.
I think the idea of not bearing false witness is good advice.

-DM- · 12-20-2002, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by doodad:
I think that some of the Ten Commandments are good advice in secular terms. One should not murder, steal, lie, covet, or commit adultery.
I think the idea of not bearing false witness is good advice.

I have read that the Comandment regarding killing or murder applied only with respect to one Israelite to another. I have also read that the Commandment against adultery applied only to wives, not to husbands. I'm not sure how anyone knows with certainty that this was the case in those days, but if true, then even those two Commandments have limited application.

-Don-

doodad · 12-20-2002, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by joejoejoe:
An obvious problem is that by taking something from the Bible, you do not practice the critical thinking required in determining right and wrong for yourself. If you already have those faculties, then there is hardly much point in gleaming wisdom from an antiquated book of Iron Age theology. If you don't have those faculties, then you should practice them until you do, rather than taking it from authority.

Joel

Your post has merit but consider this. Small children have a limited ability to determine right from wrong by thinking it through, so much of their guidance comes from more experienced people, figures of authority, so to speak. If it were not for the guidance of older people many small children would suffer and even perish because of their ignorance. Is it practical to to reinvent the wheel to suit yourself every time a question of right or wrong arises? If you choose to decide for yourself, what basis do you have for doing so? Chances are the basis is concepts of morality that represent the consensus of opinion of the culture you reside in. Who would decide right or wrong in a crime you may have been accused of? You??? What is the basis of determining your guilt? A codified law is the usual basis, a statement of authority. It's not yours to decide as needed because it isn't practical to do so.

What is the practical and intelligent thing to do, learn your limits of behavior by reading about them,as in the bible, or to blindly persist in pushing the envelope of what you can get away with in order to conclude what is acceptable and what is not?

12-20-2002, 03:27 PM	#24
catman Banned Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 102	read about ol David did you? What price did he have to pay for his first wife, daughter of Saul? And what did King David do to get chastised by this first wife to where he would no longer have sexual intercourse with her? All children should know the answers to these questions--especially one who has read the story over and over. [ December 20, 2002: Message edited by: catman ]</p>

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12-20-2002, 02:59 PM	#22
catman Banned Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 102	There is a lot of good to be glean from the bible--even if I do become a born again atheist. You must realize that Jesus always spoke in exagerations--or using hyperbole. Always. When he says in Luke 14:26: He that does not hate his brother, sister, and yea his onwself too to follow me--he cannot be my disciple. (not exact wording--too lazy to look it up) He is not telling you to hate anyone--but that he must be at the fore most front of your life. But since he didn't clarify it that way--atheist can do whatever they want with the verse--I did when I was an atheist--which I might become again next Friday.

12-20-2002, 03:17 PM	#23
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Actually, there's a certain irony in that Pseudonymph has picked an interpolated passage that originated much later than the gospels for this topic.... Philosophy aside, I love the OT tales. The story of David is a great epic that I read many times as a kid.

12-20-2002, 03:30 PM	#25
Goliath Banned Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Fargo, ND, USA Posts: 1,849	Pseudonymph, Every scrap of good advice from the bible (what little there is of it) seems to hardly be original. So, although there are significant and interesting portions of the bible, it's best to look elsewhere to the original sources to get the good stuff without all of the bigotry with which the bible is filled to the brim. Sincerely, Goliath

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