Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Christopher Lord · 06-25-2002, 11:34 PM

Recently I was very troubled to see a group of professional coders admit they are christians, and spew the common arguments as if they were not even thinking. I even saw a link to AnswersInGenisis.Org! And no minority, only a few posters even attempted to say anything to the contrary.

I can not wrap my mind around the level of self-deception required. Programming is a good analogy for the universe, in that simple laws produce very complex and wonderful systems. AND, OR, NOT, XOR, XAND, etc, applied to a stream of bits produces everything a computer can do.

On the grander scale of the universe, simple laws describe vastly complex things in much the same way, and yet...

Perhaps this belief is valid because if code has a creator, so can the universe. But code can be self-written by evolutionary processes, before my very eyes, and so there is no reason to suspect the richer base language of the universe can not do the same. Thus, until we have better information, the simpler explaination must be the one from which we work.

And still, if there was a 'coder' of the universe, this being would not be Abrahamic, but more along the lines of a Deist's god. This is so plain a fact that I can not even fathom why it must be defended at all!

Anyway, <a href="http://www.codeproject.com/lounge.asp?forumid=1159&app=50&tid=218485&select=2 18485#xx218485xx" target="_blank">here</a> is the thread on CodeProject.com where the topic came up.

I didnt participate in that thread since I didnt see it till it was long over. Threads die there fast since they sink with each new top-level topic. I just need to type this out before I get some sleep.

Christopher Lord · 06-25-2002, 11:36 PM

Update
Gonna post portions of this over there and see what happens.

wish me luck!

Edit: <a href="http://www.codeproject.com/lounge.asp?&tid=218857&forumid=1159&app=50&select= 218857#xx218857xx" target="_blank">Here</a> is the new thread I started.

[ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: Christopher Lord ]</p>

Vorkosigan · 06-26-2002, 01:12 AM

Link the YECs here. Might be educational.

Vorkosigan

Quetzal · 06-26-2002, 03:30 AM

I dunno, LC. From the dozen or so posts I read, it looks like you got more pro-atheist than pro-gawd responses. Maybe your programmers ain't so dumb after all.

scigirl · 06-26-2002, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Christopher Lord:
Recently I was very troubled to see a group of professional coders admit they are christians, and spew the common arguments as if they were not even thinking.

My BF is a computer scientist, and he's seen this trend as well. Most of them are usually ID'ers (they don't refute lays of physics & geology, etc). He seems to think it is arrogance: after all, a computer needed an intelligent programmer, so must our brain, right? I seem to think it is a lack of formal biology education - perhaps we are both right.

scigirl

bluefugue · 06-26-2002, 08:56 AM

Aren't a fair number of creationists engineers? Same dynamic at work, I suppose -- you conceive things in terms of "design"?

NeilUnreal · 06-26-2002, 09:09 AM

Ah, the haplessness of human beings while attempting to come to grips with the minds and social mores of coders! Don't they realize that our real religious wars are over things like whether or not partial template specialization is necessary for generative programming?

-Neil

"You're typing on the computer, aren't you?"

- Said in a seething, accusatory tone over the phone by a girlfriend who was trying to have a serious discussion.

NialScorva · 06-26-2002, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by NeilUnreal:
Don't they realize that our real religious wars are over things like whether or not partial template specialization is necessary for generative programming?

Of course it is required, otherwise you get the hacked together hell of inner template classes. Have you looked at the source for the STL? Uggg...

Valentine Pontifex · 06-26-2002, 03:50 PM

Why is this a surprise?

NeilUnreal · 06-27-2002, 07:42 AM

Waaaay off topic, but I know there are several C++ programmers here, and I found something cool this morning�

Did you know that if T is a template parameter, you can do things like:

enum E { AbsT = (T>=0) ? T : -T };

And AbsT (or whatever) behaves like a manifest constant, which is amenable to further compiler optimization! For a better example, look at the use of _Word in the Plauger 3.10 implementation of bitset. In this case, it is used so that doing a bitset<N> where N is containable in a single unsigned long, will turn any word-based loops in the class into count 1 for easy unrolling*.

-Neil

p.s. OK, I'll drag it bodily back on-topic: "Isn't it wonderful what Stroustrup has created and how far C++ has evolved from its humble beginnings?"

*Subject of course, to your compiler�s capabilities.

06-25-2002, 11:34 PM	#1
Christopher Lord Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 808	Professionalisim and Creation/Evolution Recently I was very troubled to see a group of professional coders admit they are christians, and spew the common arguments as if they were not even thinking. I even saw a link to AnswersInGenisis.Org! And no minority, only a few posters even attempted to say anything to the contrary. I can not wrap my mind around the level of self-deception required. Programming is a good analogy for the universe, in that simple laws produce very complex and wonderful systems. AND, OR, NOT, XOR, XAND, etc, applied to a stream of bits produces everything a computer can do. On the grander scale of the universe, simple laws describe vastly complex things in much the same way, and yet... Perhaps this belief is valid because if code has a creator, so can the universe. But code can be self-written by evolutionary processes, before my very eyes, and so there is no reason to suspect the richer base language of the universe can not do the same. Thus, until we have better information, the simpler explaination must be the one from which we work. And still, if there was a 'coder' of the universe, this being would not be Abrahamic, but more along the lines of a Deist's god. This is so plain a fact that I can not even fathom why it must be defended at all! Anyway, <a href="http://www.codeproject.com/lounge.asp?forumid=1159&app=50&tid=218485&select=2 18485#xx218485xx" target="_blank">here</a> is the thread on CodeProject.com where the topic came up. I didnt participate in that thread since I didnt see it till it was long over. Threads die there fast since they sink with each new top-level topic. I just need to type this out before I get some sleep.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

06-25-2002, 11:36 PM	#2
Christopher Lord Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 808	Update Gonna post portions of this over there and see what happens. wish me luck! Edit: <a href="http://www.codeproject.com/lounge.asp?&tid=218857&forumid=1159&app=50&select= 218857#xx218857xx" target="_blank">Here</a> is the new thread I started. [ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: Christopher Lord ]</p>

06-26-2002, 01:12 AM	#3
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Link the YECs here. Might be educational. Vorkosigan

06-26-2002, 03:30 AM	#4
Quetzal Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Ecuador Posts: 738	I dunno, LC. From the dozen or so posts I read, it looks like you got more pro-atheist than pro-gawd responses. Maybe your programmers ain't so dumb after all.

06-26-2002, 08:56 AM	#6
bluefugue Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,427	Aren't a fair number of creationists engineers? Same dynamic at work, I suppose -- you conceive things in terms of "design"?

06-26-2002, 09:09 AM	#7
NeilUnreal Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: USA Posts: 77	Ah, the haplessness of human beings while attempting to come to grips with the minds and social mores of coders! Don't they realize that our real religious wars are over things like whether or not partial template specialization is necessary for generative programming? -Neil "You're typing on the computer, aren't you?" - Said in a seething, accusatory tone over the phone by a girlfriend who was trying to have a serious discussion.

06-26-2002, 03:50 PM	#9
Valentine Pontifex Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Orion Arm of the Milky Way Galaxy Posts: 3,092	Why is this a surprise?

06-27-2002, 07:42 AM	#10
NeilUnreal Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: USA Posts: 77	Waaaay off topic, but I know there are several C++ programmers here, and I found something cool this morning� Did you know that if T is a template parameter, you can do things like: enum E { AbsT = (T>=0) ? T : -T }; And AbsT (or whatever) behaves like a manifest constant, which is amenable to further compiler optimization! For a better example, look at the use of _Word in the Plauger 3.10 implementation of bitset. In this case, it is used so that doing a bitset<N> where N is containable in a single unsigned long, will turn any word-based loops in the class into count 1 for easy unrolling. -Neil p.s. OK, I'll drag it bodily back on-topic: "Isn't it wonderful what Stroustrup has created and how far C++ has evolved from its humble beginnings?" Subject of course, to your compiler�s capabilities.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.