Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Vibr8gKiwi · 09-03-2002, 02:59 PM

It occurs to me that people often strive towards a state of no-feeling. When you feel hot, you want to be cooler so you don't feel hot; when you feel cold, you want to be warmer so you don't feel cold; when you're hungry you want to eat so you don't feel hungry; you work but would likely rather retire and not have to do anything; you don't want to be tired, or bored, or sick or whatnot. It's almost like bliss is the state of not feeling anything (sex being the big exception for me).

Assuming that death is the absence of feeling and such, then it seems to me that most people strive to be dead.

I think I might like being dead. Well I won't exist to judge it, but it won't be bad... it won't be anything.

snatchbalance · 09-03-2002, 03:46 PM

V

Yes, death might not be so bad; but in the mean time you've got stimulus and responce to deal with.

SB

sweep · 09-03-2002, 04:08 PM

you're writing about perception, and our sensation of change. without change we don't actually exist. For instance the eyes respond to change and don't won't stay fixated for long- try for yourself, or do some reading about the chemical reactions therein.

secondly, deprivation and satiation, encompassing the duality of our existence is not the entirety of our existence. Deprived of love and laughter, one does not notice- also death. Filled with love and laughter, one can never have too much, although I did almost cough up some blood after that acid trip.

Ojuice5001 · 09-03-2002, 04:49 PM

Although the Religio Romana believes in an afterlife, the vast majority of people go to the Plains of Asphodel. A soul in this place is conscious, but experiences nothing, not even boredom. It's like being half-asleep for eternity. So I can look forward to a conscious experience similar to your description, unless my idea that the afterlife consists of being a worker for the gods is correct. I can see Postverta preparing me for either the Plains of Asphodel, or serving her. The likely afterlife for me is not heaven or hell, but an eternal sleep. And I'm okay with that.

Vibr8gKiwi · 09-03-2002, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sweep:
secondly, deprivation and satiation, encompassing the duality of our existence is not the entirety of our existence. Deprived of love and laughter, one does not notice- also death. Filled with love and laughter, one can never have too much, although I did almost cough up some blood after that acid trip.

I've never tried acid, but tend to agree we want more than just the absense of feeling (I think I mentioned sex

). But I am surprised at how often I notice this drive to non-feeling in myself and others. But perhaps I'm just thinking this today since it's hot here.

Vibr8gKiwi · 09-03-2002, 04:59 PM

Eternal dreamless sleep sounds groovy to me. I've always liked sleep (and I don't usually remember my dreams).

[edited to kill questionable question]

[ September 03, 2002: Message edited by: Vibr8gKiwi ]

Mark_Chid · 09-03-2002, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vibr8gKiwi:
It occurs to me that people often strive towards a state of no-feeling. When you feel hot, you want to be cooler so you don't feel hot; when you feel cold, you want to be warmer so you don't feel cold; when you're hungry you want to eat so you don't feel hungry; you work but would likely rather retire and not have to do anything; you don't want to be tired, or bored, or sick or whatnot. It's almost like bliss is the state of not feeling anything (sex being the big exception for me).

Assuming that death is the absence of feeling and such, then it seems to me that most people strive to be dead.

I think I might like being dead. Well I won't exist to judge it, but it won't be bad... it won't be anything.

I don't agree with your hypothesis. When you eat, do you choose bland, tasteless food? When you read to you seek dull books?

If your only aim in life is to avoid the unpleasant then yes, you may as well be dead, but I, as the majority of humanity, actively seek the pleasant. I don't strive to avoid sensation, I just have the sense to avoid CERTAIN sensations.

bluefugue · 09-03-2002, 06:53 PM

Kiwi -- it sounds a bit like Buddhism. I have heard Buddhism described by some as the idea that all existence is suffering, therefore nonexistence is what we must aspire to. (If there is actually nothing like this in Buddhism, then I apologize.)

It is tough to find a happy medium between various states of being. When I'm working, I wish I wasn't working. But when I don't have any work to do, I'm liable to get bored, and I may either become depressed or seek refuge in mindless entertainment (i.e. videogames) merely to kill time.

I often look back on the past with a sense of nostalgia, or look forward with a sense of anticipation. But I rarely am in the here and now thinking, "I'm happy right now." Of course, that could just be because I'm a miserable person.

For me, happiness may require something to look forward to. If your current situation is pleasant, and you also have something good coming along in the future, then you may feel content. The opening pages of "The Portrait of a Lady" describe something like this.

sweep · 09-03-2002, 08:43 PM

story time!

A certain samurai had a reputation for impatient and hot-tempered behaviour. A Zen master, well known for his excellent cooking, decided that the warrior needed to be taught a lesson before he became any more dangerous. He invited the Samurai to dinner.

the samurai arrived at the appointed time. The Zen master told him to make himself comfortable while he finished preparing the food. A long time passed. The samurai waited impatiently. After a while, he called out: "Zen master- have you forgotten me?"

The Zen master came out of the kitchen. "I am very sorry," he said. "Dinner is taking longer to prepare than i had thought." He went back to the kitchen.

A long time passed. The samurai sat, growing hungrier by the minute. At last he called out, a little softer this time: "Zen master- please. When will dinner be served?"

The Zen master came out of the kitchen. "I'm sorry. There has been a further delay. It won't be much longer." He went back to the kitchen.

A long time passed. Finally, the samurai couldn't endure the waiting any longer. He rose to his feet, chagrined and ravenously hungry. Just then, the Zen master entered the room with a tray of food. First he served 'miso shiru' (soybean soup).

The samurai gratefully drank the soup, enchanted by its flavour. "Oh, Zen Master," he exclaimed, "this is the finest miso shiru i have ever tasted! You truly deserve your reputation as an expert cook!"

"It's nothing," replied the Zen master, modestly.
"Only miso shiru."

The samurai set down his empty bowl. "Truly magical soup. What secret spices did you use to bring out the flavour?"

"Nothing special," the Zen master replied.

"No, no- I insist. The soup is extraordinarily delicious!"

"Well, there is one thing..."

"I knew it!" exclaimed the samurai, eagerly leaning forward. "There had to be *some-thing* to make it taste good! Tell me- what is it?"

The Zen master softly spoke: "It took time," he said.

So, you see that time is the master of our perception. Deprived of our needs, we experience greater pleasure. Adversely, when we take our fill the nerves habituate- that is the feeling decreases. how many of you have sex joylessly, wank for the fifth time to a climax of dull spasms, or take drugs until being high becomes normal?

when we realise that experience is relative then it becomes clear that there is no such thing as best, only better. The next time you feel bored and dull, eat some rotten meat and give yourself really bad food poisoning. At the end of pain comes great pleasure.

something on relativity of experience, for good measure!

If i have my first taste of ice cream (bloggs) it is wonderful. A day later i try some 'jen and berry's ice cream. This is far superior in comparison. I now have an absolute measure, in terms of my judgement, on which to gauge qualitative differences in ice cream. Another two days pass and i try some super whippy ice cream, and this is better yet. I now have a relative measure. Whereas, a couple of days ago, jen and berry's was best, it is now only 'o.k.' Bloggs ice cream was wonderful a few days ago, and now it is appalling. This has taught me to realise that there is no such thing as 'best', there is only better, and that change is absolutely vital to experience consciousness. Sameness equates to death. The nerves habituate, to continual stimuli- the obese person eats without joy, the womanisers passions are never satisfied.

[ September 03, 2002: Message edited by: sweep ]

Vibr8gKiwi · 09-04-2002, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark_Chid:

I don't agree with your hypothesis. When you eat, do you choose bland, tasteless food? When you read to you seek dull books?

If your only aim in life is to avoid the unpleasant then yes, you may as well be dead, but I, as the majority of humanity, actively seek the pleasant. I don't strive to avoid sensation, I just have the sense to avoid CERTAIN sensations.

It's not that simple. Even the pleasant things you do have a drive behind them that gets you to do them--that is the feeling you're trying to fulfill (or get to go away), even though you expect fulfilling the drive will be pleasant. If you want good food, it's that "want" feeling you're getting rid of by eating good food.

09-03-2002, 02:59 PM	#1
Vibr8gKiwi Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: CA, USA Posts: 543	Death becomes me It occurs to me that people often strive towards a state of no-feeling. When you feel hot, you want to be cooler so you don't feel hot; when you feel cold, you want to be warmer so you don't feel cold; when you're hungry you want to eat so you don't feel hungry; you work but would likely rather retire and not have to do anything; you don't want to be tired, or bored, or sick or whatnot. It's almost like bliss is the state of not feeling anything (sex being the big exception for me). Assuming that death is the absence of feeling and such, then it seems to me that most people strive to be dead. I think I might like being dead. Well I won't exist to judge it, but it won't be bad... it won't be anything.

09-03-2002, 04:59 PM	#6
Vibr8gKiwi Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: CA, USA Posts: 543	Eternal dreamless sleep sounds groovy to me. I've always liked sleep (and I don't usually remember my dreams). [edited to kill questionable question] [ September 03, 2002: Message edited by: Vibr8gKiwi ]</p>

09-03-2002, 08:43 PM	#9
sweep Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: sugar factory Posts: 873	story time! A certain samurai had a reputation for impatient and hot-tempered behaviour. A Zen master, well known for his excellent cooking, decided that the warrior needed to be taught a lesson before he became any more dangerous. He invited the Samurai to dinner. the samurai arrived at the appointed time. The Zen master told him to make himself comfortable while he finished preparing the food. A long time passed. The samurai waited impatiently. After a while, he called out: "Zen master- have you forgotten me?" The Zen master came out of the kitchen. "I am very sorry," he said. "Dinner is taking longer to prepare than i had thought." He went back to the kitchen. A long time passed. The samurai sat, growing hungrier by the minute. At last he called out, a little softer this time: "Zen master- please. When will dinner be served?" The Zen master came out of the kitchen. "I'm sorry. There has been a further delay. It won't be much longer." He went back to the kitchen. A long time passed. Finally, the samurai couldn't endure the waiting any longer. He rose to his feet, chagrined and ravenously hungry. Just then, the Zen master entered the room with a tray of food. First he served 'miso shiru' (soybean soup). The samurai gratefully drank the soup, enchanted by its flavour. "Oh, Zen Master," he exclaimed, "this is the finest miso shiru i have ever tasted! You truly deserve your reputation as an expert cook!" "It's nothing," replied the Zen master, modestly. "Only miso shiru." The samurai set down his empty bowl. "Truly magical soup. What secret spices did you use to bring out the flavour?" "Nothing special," the Zen master replied. "No, no- I insist. The soup is extraordinarily delicious!" "Well, there is one thing..." "I knew it!" exclaimed the samurai, eagerly leaning forward. "There had to be some-thing* to make it taste good! Tell me- what is it?" The Zen master softly spoke: "It took time,*" he said. So, you see that time is the master of our perception. Deprived of our needs, we experience greater pleasure. Adversely, when we take our fill the nerves habituate- that is the feeling decreases. how many of you have sex joylessly, wank for the fifth time to a climax of dull spasms, or take drugs until being high becomes normal? when we realise that experience is relative then it becomes clear that there is no such thing as best, only better. The next time you feel bored and dull, eat some rotten meat and give yourself really bad food poisoning. At the end of pain comes great pleasure. something on relativity of experience, for good measure! If i have my first taste of ice cream (bloggs) it is wonderful. A day later i try some 'jen and berry's ice cream. This is far superior in comparison. I now have an absolute measure, in terms of my judgement, on which to gauge qualitative differences in ice cream. Another two days pass and i try some super whippy ice cream, and this is better yet. I now have a relative measure. Whereas, a couple of days ago, jen and berry's was best, it is now only 'o.k.' Bloggs ice cream was wonderful a few days ago, and now it is appalling. This has taught me to realise that there is no such thing as 'best', there is only better, and that change is absolutely vital to experience consciousness. Sameness equates to death. The nerves habituate, to continual stimuli- the obese person eats without joy, the womanisers passions are never satisfied. [ September 03, 2002: Message edited by: sweep ]</p>

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09-03-2002, 03:46 PM	#2
snatchbalance Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: CT Posts: 333	V Yes, death might not be so bad; but in the mean time you've got stimulus and responce to deal with. SB

09-03-2002, 04:08 PM	#3
sweep Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: sugar factory Posts: 873	you're writing about perception, and our sensation of change. without change we don't actually exist. For instance the eyes respond to change and don't won't stay fixated for long- try for yourself, or do some reading about the chemical reactions therein. secondly, deprivation and satiation, encompassing the duality of our existence is not the entirety of our existence. Deprived of love and laughter, one does not notice- also death. Filled with love and laughter, one can never have too much, although I did almost cough up some blood after that acid trip.

09-03-2002, 04:49 PM	#4
Ojuice5001 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: A city in Florida that I love Posts: 3,416	Although the Religio Romana believes in an afterlife, the vast majority of people go to the Plains of Asphodel. A soul in this place is conscious, but experiences nothing, not even boredom. It's like being half-asleep for eternity. So I can look forward to a conscious experience similar to your description, unless my idea that the afterlife consists of being a worker for the gods is correct. I can see Postverta preparing me for either the Plains of Asphodel, or serving her. The likely afterlife for me is not heaven or hell, but an eternal sleep. And I'm okay with that.

09-03-2002, 06:53 PM	#8
bluefugue Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,427	Kiwi -- it sounds a bit like Buddhism. I have heard Buddhism described by some as the idea that all existence is suffering, therefore nonexistence is what we must aspire to. (If there is actually nothing like this in Buddhism, then I apologize.) It is tough to find a happy medium between various states of being. When I'm working, I wish I wasn't working. But when I don't have any work to do, I'm liable to get bored, and I may either become depressed or seek refuge in mindless entertainment (i.e. videogames) merely to kill time. I often look back on the past with a sense of nostalgia, or look forward with a sense of anticipation. But I rarely am in the here and now thinking, "I'm happy right now." Of course, that could just be because I'm a miserable person. For me, happiness may require something to look forward to. If your current situation is pleasant, and you also have something good coming along in the future, then you may feel content. The opening pages of "The Portrait of a Lady" describe something like this.

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