seebs

It works much better as advice than justification.

brighid

I realize, that when my mother (and others) had made that statement is was meant lovingly and as some cosmic reassurance that I would be okay. I don’t fault my mother, or even others for using this in an attempt to comfort those who are enduring life’s hardships.
How does one separate the justification from the statement that God would not GIVE you what He felt you could not handle? Where is the advice in that statement, or is it more of an implied notion of advice to endure?

When someone says that God has given (and this would obviously be a deliberate choice on His part) such and such a burden (and we can use my case as an example) doesn’t that mean that the suffering is meant for whom He intended it? Isn’t it a deliberate punishment or act of sorts given one directly by God because He felt said person was “strong enough” to handle a particular burden? And when one looks around to those who aren’t suffering, at least the same ill fate but instead are actually enjoying good health, prosperity and security and he/she is actually doing wrong or in my case committing violent crimes against me … do you see what I am getting at?

That God would give me that, but choose not to give him something fitting his crimes that are no less then equal my own sins, but also far greater is not something I can actually reconcile in my mind or heart. I also know of cases much, much worse then my own and at least I emerged from all of this with my life, my child and my sanity. Believe me when I tell you that I am one of the lucky ones, but not because of some twist of fate but by a lot of very personal and difficult work to remove myself from harms way and some other drastic steps (although completely legal) to protect my child.

I personally felt utterly betrayed by this God and the nights I barely made it through, utterly spent from the agony, strain, tears and worst of all the fear … well… it was cruel. I could never, ever punish my child in the unthinkable ways I was told God was punishing me, and at the time I fully believed this was His punishment.

So, it is my personal feeling that this statement (and in the case of a theist, a statement of fact) really needs to be examined for what it is in fact stating and implying within the context of a given situation, and within the context of the millions of horrible situations happening across this world at this very moment: another woman being beaten and killed in an honor killing, children dieing at this moment from starvation, malnutrition and curable diseases if only they had the privilege of being born somewhere else, the family in your own neighborhood hiding the secrets of domestic violence, the mothers having to raise their children in rat and cockroach infested ghettos where street thugs rule and no one is safe, for the innocent child who cannot beat cancer, and where despots, tyrants, robber barons, genocidal maniacs, liars, thieves, pedophiles and the Church that hides them so they may abuse yet again … all under the watchful and deliberate eye of a God who does not give people that which they cannot handle …

I personally believe that man is mostly good and this world is a beautiful, priceless treasure that I work constantly to protect. If God does GIVE all these people all these things and does not visit punishment upon those who deserve it, but allows this life to pass in comfort, riches, health, with full stomachs, warm and secure beds to sleep in, doctors to care for their wounds … well … I find this God to be utterly cruel and unusual as I would not cause even my worst enemy to suffer what I have, or the fates of those who suffered far worse then I.

It simply makes absolute no sense to me, until I realize that a God of love would not do these things and that the Universe is rather indifferent to the fate of those things that inhabit It. Maybe there is a God somewhere, but It/He/She/They seem utterly indifferent to what matters, for if we can thank a God for that winning touch down surely we can criticize and question the existence of a God that chooses to inflict war, famine, disease and pestilence on millions of men, women and children – none of whom deserve such a terrible fate.

I realize that a lot of the justification for that statement is held within the idea that in the afterlife the meek, abused and poor shall be rewarded. I doubt I need to explain how wrong I think that is. All anyone, including the theist KNOWS (not believes) for sure is that this IS the only life a person gets … and compassion is built on helping others lessen their suffering, rise above the pain and torment and move onto something better in this life. It is the same sentiment that makes the deeds of Mother Teresa such an outrage. We will never eliminate all forms of suffering, but as human beings we should feel a sense of duty to those who suffer and whom we can actually help to feel a moments peace, to fall asleep with a full belly, to walk down their street without fear of death or beating …

How does one reconcile a loving God with the reality of that statement?

I also want to take a moment to make sure that my thoughts and declarations aren’t taken personally, but I gather you aren’t the type to do so … but I simply want to be clear as to avoid any potential and avoidable offense.

Brighid

Philosoft

How much control does one really have? I think talking about "control" or "choice" is trivial if we don't know the factors or the formula that enter into the decision.
Again, in what sense is a choice being made? Obviously, there's something being done that might qualify as a "choice" but if choices are largely determined by past events, you seem to be left with the idea that every person has some intrinsic will that can overcome bad reactions to crummy situations. Then, you have another prior choice whether to follow your "will." An infinite regress of choices, it seems.
I don't agree at all. Far more often than not, I see people reacting predictably to situations - they are pleased when something good happens, and upset when something bad happens. The "control" you speak of is only very rarely observed, and people tend to make a big deal of someone who "overcomes the odds."
Well, there's your problem. Emotions probably originate in the limbic system of the "old" or "reptilian" brain. Thought states we consciously control are seated in the cortex. While there appear to be conscious ways to outwardly suppress or overcome emotional reactions, controlling the reactions themselves is beyond us.

seebs

I have to say, I basically agree. My thinking is, the advice of "try to take everything as an opportunity to grow" is good advice. The claim "whatever's happening to you is an opportunity to grow" is probably bullshit. Most often, what's happening to you is "shit happens", and I think it's a bad habit for people to try to make this conform to some central religious truth. I don't like the way a lot of religious people try to give God all the credit for everything, and then carefully turn any blame they may run into into credit. Of course, I'm no more fond of the "everything good comes from God, everything bad comes from Satan" model. Frankly, the vast majority of the suffering in the world comes down to the effects of wrongdoing by others. Neither of our favorite sky-fairies needs to be invoked to explain why a rape victim suffers; it's sufficient to observe that there was a rapist.

Past that, we get into the problem of evil, which I personally find an unpersuasive argument, but a powerful one nonetheless. I'm reconciled with it, but I don't particularly *understand* all the issues. In the end, it comes down to this: Suffering and all, if you gave me the choice of living this life or no life at all, I'd cling to this one with everything I had. Life is, it appears to me, good enough. If that's just instincts, well, fine; they're working for me.

Anyway, I also want to say, brighid, that I'm very sorry about the way your mother tried to interpret things. I think it's a poor model for the world to try to look for higher purpose in everything. If there is to be a higher purpose to our suffering, we must provide it. I think it often helps to try to do so, but that doesn't mean we succeed, or that we're bad people when we don't.

brighid

I understand how the argument from evil can be unpersuasive for the existence of any God, but at least for me and how I have been taught that the Christian God is all loving, merciful, compassionate, and yadda, yadda, yadda … I find the argument for evil persuasive in the area that this God is not those things, but not that something that one could define as God does not in fact exist.

I am completely open to the possibility that something might indeed exist out there, but IT does not seem to be all or only of what man has determined IT to be. Therein exists my main and personal problem with the existence of the Judeo-Christian depiction of a God.

I appreciate your honesty and candor. My mother was only telling me what she had been taught, and with love and sincerity. She truly wanted to mitigate my pain and lessen my troubles by saying these things. She truly believes it, but I have little confidence she has actually taken the time to examine the greater scope of the implication that sort of statement makes. She simply cannot, or will not see it as a negative. That statement would not have had the profoundly painful affect it had without all the years of teaching regarding the nature of God, sin, punishment, etc. I received as a child brought up in the Catholic faith. Well … also if I didn’t have the ability to reason through that statement and how it applies to other things.

I know she had no ill will and it didn’t pain me that SHE said it that to me in sincerity and love, but rather that God COULD and would be the one responsible for all the unjust, life threatening and terrifying things that happened to me and my child … all the while sparing the perpetrator of the evil. I hope that makes sense.

I also think that is at the heart of questions posited here. If God chooses to burden and harm people with such things, he can also choose to eliminate that suffering and apply punishment justly and hence the quandary regarding His existence and/or His realistic attributes.

I wish there was this all loving, perfect, merciful and compassionate Being who meted out punishments and rewards fitting the crime and or good deed. I do not see that when I look at the world I hold dear. There is no amount of torture I would not endure to protect my child and I could not, in good conscience punish my child they way God is said to punish His children. The mere thought that someone has and others will deliberately or carelessly cause my child pain causes me great anxiety at times. How could a loving God allow these things to happen when He could teach equally valuable lessons through positive reinforcement, just reward and merciful or at least equitable punishment?

In closing, I appreciate your perspective and I hope your example (as a theist, and more importantly a human being) extends itself onto those with whom you come in contact with in your daily life.

Brighid

seebs

I can only reach that conclusion if I am someday able to observe the alternatives; I don't know which combinations of circumstances are logically consistent when creating universes.

Yup. Agreed.

Right. Which is one of the reasons I don't believe that God is generally behind our suffering.

Thank you. That's one of the nicest things anyone's ever said to me. Tragically, my belief system is sufficiently unexceptional among most of my friends that it doesn't do much; one of the reasons I hang out at ChristianForums is to try to get people to be a little more compassionate, and a little less judging, and maybe learn to think a bit.

faustuz

It would seem that the existence of suicide is sufficient evidence against this argument.

Queen of Swords

I wonder if miscarried/aborted babies, infants, small children, etc. who go to Heaven are then made to suffer so that they can fully learn and grow as individuals. Surely a compassionate God wouldn't want them to miss out on being complete people.

brighid

Hopefully you will one day be surprised by someone who has been positively affected by your example We many never agree on the nature of God, but I feel it is more important to focus on what we do agree on than the ideas that we do not share in common. Have a nice evening.

Brighid

seebs

Once, when I was having a bad day, I was walking around a mall, and a guy came up to me, pointed to the girl he was walking with, and said "I love this girl. You know that? I love her." He laughed loudly and walked away, and she was giggling hysterically.

I doubt he remembers. But I do.