Bobzammel

One of the more disturbing POVs I've read about recently is that the Christian absolutely must hate their earthly existence in order to get into heaven--an inverse if you will. This is based on a number of bible passages:

Matthew 10:34-39
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34 "Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;
36 and a man's foes will be those of his own household.
37 He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;
38 and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for my sake will find it.
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Matthew 16:24-26
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24 Then Jesus told his disciples, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
25 For whoever would save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
26 For what will it profit a man, if he gains the whole world and forfeits his life? Or what shall a man give in return for his life? LMark
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Mark 8:34-37
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34 And he called to him the multitude with his disciples, and said to them, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
35 For whoever would save his life will lose it; and whoever loses his life for my sake and the gospel's will save it.
36 For what does it profit a man, to gain the whole world and forfeit his life?
37 For what can a man give in return for his life? Luke
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Luke 14:26-27
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26 "If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.
27 Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
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Luke 17:33
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33 Whoever seeks to gain his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will preserve it.

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Some sites, such as <a href="http://www.voiceofjesus.org," target="_blank">www.voiceofjesus.org,</a> take this to the next step. They include this frightening doctrine:

1. In so far as human beings are concerned, the will of God is one thing absolutely exclusive of all other things: "Come home to me!" But we cannot go until that is also our will. The choice is ours. That, and whatever contributes to it, is God’s only will for human beings. The will of God is done on earth only when a human being desires, out of the love of God, to transfer to heaven.

2. Life is the term used to define our individual experience of the world. Most human beings have a love of life, interpreted to mean that they do not want to lose life. This is the desire for survival or self-preservation. Defining "evil" as whatever opposes the will of God, then the love of life in this world is the essence of evil. If we define sin as whatever we do that opposes the will of God, then the love of life is the essence of sin. War and oppression spring directly from the love of life as human beings respond to threats.

3. The love of God is the supremely radical idea. Human beings do not love God until they desire in their hearts to go to him where he is. Human beings who love God do not want to remain in the world, and thus can be said to hate the life in this world. We are not justified in God’s sight until we desire to go to him. Only that human being is righteous who truly desires from the heart to go to the Father. He awaits our free choice.

4. If we define any kingdom as the realm where the will of a king is done, it follows that the kingdom of God is come on earth only when the will of God is done on earth. This occurs only when a human being on the earth desires to go to God in love, that being God’s only will for human beings. When this is first done by a leader whom others follow in the Way, then it can be said that God rules the earth and his kingdom has come finally and completely, solely because the world is fulfilling His purpose in creating it. This has no essential reference to conditions on the earth, whether peace or war, or famine or feast.

5. The patterns of the world correspond to the realities of heaven, and compete with heaven for the devotion of the individual. Devotion to these patterns that include family, race and state are contrary to the will of the Father and are rooted in evil.

6. There is no glorious future for the world or anything in it, including the earth. All things will pass away. The belief in and desire for a glorious future for the earth is indicative of attachment to the earth – to love of life on the earth – and therefore comes from evil.

7. It is and must remain impossible to prove the existence of God, heaven, and eternal life. Such a proof would work to coerce the freedom of the will and make void the purpose of God. The continuing hiddenness of both God and heaven are of the essence.

8. It is easily seen that the world and all it contains stands over against the will of God as an object of devotion even when fulfilling His purpose. It is therefore a "necessary evil" in its totality. Life on earth – the totality of earthly existence – is for human beings the evil option because it is not what God desires. The essential choices therefore are all either/or, never both/and.

9. There must be a continuous chain of witnesses in the world who will proclaim the truth to their fellows after having chosen the Way. Therefore each individual must remain in the world until his time before going to the Father. Suicide is not appropriate, as it is a testing of God’s willingness to receive us.

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This is dangerous stuff people. How long should we tolerate this before it goes out of proportion? I've already heard that people have commited suicide after reading this strange doctrine...

(edited by moderator to delete the large amounts of blank space)

[ November 28, 2002: Message edited by: The Other Michael ]</p>

winstonjen

What makes it worse is that some of them are not content with self-matyrdom, they expect others to follow suit.

CALDONIA

If this world is so wicked, evil, and oppressive, as so many Christians tell us, why is it not so obvious to all unbelievers?

Those who hate life have no incentive to attempt to improve it if all their hope is toward gaining an afterlife (assuming Faith trumps Good Works).

happyboy

of course! we shouldn't be surprised. furthermore, if heaven is so wonderful, and is eternal, why should we care what happens to our earth? why not trash it and rape it of all it's resources? why should it matter to a believer? after all, there's a wonderful world waiting for the believer in the life to come.

happyboy

The Other Michael

This looks like it will fit better in General Religious Discussions so I'm moving it there.

cheers,
Michael
MF&P Moderator, First Class

Voltaire Is My Hero

*Why just mention Christians in this regard? They surely are NOT the only religion which exhibits and fosters hatred of life, stifling of freedom, irrationality, etc.! Most, if not all, religions are rife with irrationality, oppression, degradation, and etc.

At the present time the religion which has me the most concerned are these crackpot fundamentalist Muslim terrorists going around shooting, bombing, and blowing up anyone who "dares" to be different than they, who refuse to believe as they do, etc.

On that note, I recently posted the following to a private mailing list of mine [quoting an 18th century philosopher named Deleyre]:

"The particular causes of fanaticism are to be found: In atrocious morals. Some men for whom life is a state of
continual danger and torment have to aspire after death either as the
end of or as the recompense for their evil ways. But what havoc will
not be wrought to society by the person who desires death, if he is
impelled to inflict as well as to accept it? We can therefore call
fanatics all those excessive minds who interpret the maxims of
religion to the letter and who rigorously follow the letter, those
despotic doctors who choose the most revolting systems, those
ruthless casuists who distress nature and who, after having torn your
eye out and cut your hand off, also tell you to love completely the
thing that tyrannizes you."

Sound familiar?

If you'd like a brutally honest "take" on the religion racket [ANY religion] and the motives of the persons in power within them, I invite everyone here to read the following:

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7842/jbconv15.htm" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7842/jbconv15.htm</a>

--Cindy

[ November 29, 2002: Message edited by: Voltaire Is My Hero ]</p>

Pseudonymph

Is there something wrong with this particular verse?

It seems that all this one is saying, is that what good are earthly possesions once you've passed on?

CALDONIA

One must agree that earthly goods are of no value once you've passed on. Still, ignoring and rejecting the good things the world has to offer in order to better focus on some supposed afterlife makes "living" a rather empty exercise.

Anti-Creedance Front

You've touched on a really disturbing point here. Neo-Calvinists surround themselves in their religion, because they truly dislike their earthly existence, so they must veil themselves in propaganda from their church, or "spiritual" advisors. I have often heard people ask them the question, "If you get such just desserts in heaven, why don't you just off yourself now? You're a born-again Christian, so God would forgive you." Their reply is always "suicide is a sin". If they didn't have that as a sin in Christianity, there'd be a whole lot of dead followers.

Suicide is all too common in cult thinking like that. Just look at the Love Temple and Heaven's Gate. They committed suicide to go to their "eternal paradise". According to Calvinist doctrine, as I'm sure many of you have seen, our sole purpose on earth is to evangelize others and die. The rest doesn't matter. Evangelicals also don't have any moral constraints, because according to them, they get to heaven not through "good works" but through "salvation in their Lord Jesus Christ". Doesn't being ethical have any value anymore? I'm going to be sick.

Odemus

On the contrary I am happy and able to enjoy life to the fullest precisely because of my faith in Jesus.

Those who twist the meaning of the verses presented in this thread to a fatalistic philosophy are already predisposed to that kind of thinking and have come to Christianity for the wrong reasons.The Bible does not teach us to despise living.