Liquidrage

Pet stores should not sell puppies.
Dogs should not be raised in isolation of people/other dogs.

Pet stores also have a history of selling poor quality dogs. I am a boxer (the dogs, silly) afficanado and I know much about the breed. I saw a local pet store selling a white boxer as "Rare" and the price was rather high.
The problem is that white boxers are a dog with a defect. Their skin is over sensative and much care must be given to these dogs to avoid severe sun burn.
A good breeder would never sell a white boxer to someone that wasn't well prepared to give the dog the special care it needs. A spay/neuter contract would also be a must.

BYB's (Back Yard Breeders) are not much better.
Usually these are people that mean well but do not understand that their dog might not be the best suited for breeding (temperment, history of disease, displasia, etc).

Mutts are usually much healthier then purebreeds. Go to the pound and save one. If you want a pure, contact your local Kennel Club for a recommended breeder of the breed you want.

ohwilleke

I have mixed feelings about the treatment of animals.

I eat cows, pigs, deer, chickens, ducks, rabbits, turkeys, fish of all kinds, mollusks, etc. I generally feel comfortable about rats being used for medical research and have personally fed rats to snakes.

I have relatives who've had dog soup.

I'm worried that people who are cruel to animals are often cruel to people too. But, I have a hard time distinguishing morally between someone who kills a cow for meat, which then gets recalled and hence doesn't go to any useful purpose, and someone who kills a dog that is bred for a particular image but doesn't live up to it.

Mercy for an injured or deformed animals may be admirable, but I think it takes a back seat in my mind to even fairly low level human concerns. I'd rather let a kid without a nice new toy have a nice new toy, than spend the money to save an animal that is deformed because it is inbred.

This said, I don't see why people prefer purebreds to mutts. (I have a mutt cat myself, and am not a dog person). But, that's just me talking. Some tastes are acquired, and gauche, poorly bred people like me don't always understand very legitimate tastes.

[ October 16, 2002: Message edited by: ohwilleke ]</p>

shawred

Breeding immoral? Nah. Reason: Animals simply don't have rights. If you want to breed dogs to sell their puppies, thats your right. If you want to kill the ones with unfavorable traits, that SHOULD also be your right. I by no means believe that harming animals is a noble action. However, as long as those people don't harm other people, I'm okay with it. I personally wouldn't take part in such actions because it has no value to me. However, if I were a breeder, I may understand the reasoning behind the practice and find it necessary. One other note: Screw PETA and all other "animal rights" activists (isn't that an oxymoron?).

galiel

That is a non-sequitur. It is not the animal's rights that are the issue, it is the behavior of the humans that is the issue. By your logic, deliberately subjecting animals to extreme torture for pure entertainment (say, strangling puppies with your bare hands) is not immoral, either.

The problem is that cruelty, if sanctioned, rarely limits its scope. Mistreat animals, and you are likely to mistreat your own children. And so on.

By the way, this doesn't mean I oppose breeding. At this point, every food source, animal or vegetable, in both the developed and the developing world, is the product of some degree of breeding by humans, and the same is true of every pet. Like Livius, however, I draw an (admittedly somewhat ambiguous) line at changes that cause infirmity or pain, merely to please human aesthetics. in other words, it is not breeding per se that is the problem, it is gratuitous breeding.

Liquidrage

For a cat it typically isn't as big a deal.
I do not think purebreeds are better dogs, however the reasoning behind keeping breeds as breeds is that you know what you are getting.

For example, someone with an apartment that wants a good guard dog, a best friend type dog, but not a heavy barker or a dog that needs a lot of space every day could get a Great Dane, a Boxer, etc.
If you go to the pound and get a dog, it might have some lab in it for example and more often then not anything with lab in it does not adjust well to a small place.

If you have a farm and want a cattle dog you want a collie. Put my boxer on a farm near a cow and she'll spend all day licking the cows ass.

In some cases it is better for a person to know what they are getting (even though you can never be 100% sure) then to just get something that may be a bad fit.

So there are reasons beyond l33tism for purebreeds.

Purebreed cats I just don't get, though my wife claims she does.

galiel

Ignoring the gratuitous defensiveness, the reason we went with a purebred puppy (a smooth-coated collie, it's a short-haired breed not as common in the US), was because we wanted some predictibility; we wanted a good idea on what his adult size would be, what his personality would be, what amount of exercise would be ideal, what kind of climate would be ideal. And how much he would shed ;-)

We wanted to be able to meet his parents and make sure they were healthy and know about any potential hereditary deseases in the family, we wanted to select a breed generally known for robust health and which hand't been mucked about too much by breeders and whose breeders had a generally good reputation, and we wanted to meet his breeder and make sure he had been brought into the world lovingly and was treated well.

We were adopting a new member into our family of four, and wanted an idea of what we were getting into, that's all.

No elitist element to it. We are not interested in showing him (even though I can't complete a walk with him without someone stopping, even cars sometimes, to comment on how spectacular he is), we didn't tape his ears down, and we happily signed a contract with the breeder prohibiting us from using him to breed. We also neutered him at the appropriate age in order to help cut down on the problem with unwanted animals (it is also arguably healthier for dogs that don't breed).

We did spend many months looking for the right dog at local shelters, without success, and my daughters in particular wanted a young puppy, not an older dog.

There is no one answer, and people don't have to be made right or wrong for chosing what they do. A little less judgement and a little more tolerance for diverse viewpoints would go a long way around here

brighid

Galiel,

We did the same thing when looking for our dog and we settled on a Chinese Sharpei. She is 2 1/2 years old now and we are currently waiting to adopt a full grown, male, Doberman from a rescue group in our area. Once upon a time he had a family that loved and cared for him. We don't know his whole story, but he was neglected by his most recent owner and is going to need to be nursed back to health.

We did alot of research on a lot of different breeds before selecting the Sharpei and the Doberman. In the case of our Sharpei we wanted to know the breed, meet many breeders and examine the parents and grandparents of the dog we selected. Our choice fit our lifestyle, the size of home we had at the time, shedding considerations (although twice a year she sheds) and temperament. We knew of the possibility of genetic diseases with this specific dog and she has only had some classic eye problems due to the skin around her eyes, which has been corrected with surgery. She is an absolutely beautiful dog and her temperament is wonderful. She is fabulous with children, very affectionate, intelligent and very clean. Unless she is sick she won't soil her home, a characteristic of her breed. Some of the research we came across said there were temperament problems with Sharpeis, but we haven't experienced that but we also specifically chose this breeder because of the excellent temperaments her dogs exhibited. It was a great choice for us and we would certainly do it again.

We have also chosen adoption of this other dog because we feel we are prepared to take on this specific situation. His temperament is excellent, he is well trained and he needs a home. Plus the dog had my husband wrapped around his big paw in about two seconds.

We may even consider fostering a dog in the future.

Brighid

livius drusus

I agree completely with galiel's reply to you. PETA style animal activism is not at issue here, shawred. Dog breeders who contravene their own professional guidelines with an utter lack of consideration not just for individual animals but for the health and well-being of an entire breedare certainly unethical and I have no compunction in called them immoral.

galiel -

My own experience is very similar to yours except our collie was rough coated (much like <a href="http://www.telusplanet.net/public/cyourdr/BOO-1.gif" target="_blank">this one</a> only with a far fuller mane and coarser fur). We also never showed or bred him although he too was so intensely beautiful that people would stop and stare, jaws agape. My mom was pregnant with me when they bought Martini and they needed a gentle, easily trainable dog with infinite patience for the annoyances of little kids.

Valmorian

[/b]

Is this not the slippery slope fallacy? My brother used to torture bugs in the back yard when he was a kid. That doesn't mean he's going to mistreat people.

galiel

No, it isn't. Slopes sometimes are slippery, that is no fallacy. And there is a difference between your example and the ones we talk about--not in objective facts, but in human attitudes. For better of wrose, people tend to distinguish between more neurologically primitive species such as insects, fish and snails, on the one hand, and animals with more advanced nervous systems which clearly experience (can can express in ways to which humans emotionally respond), and especially with higher-order animals such as cats, dogs, horses, whales, etc. In addition, there is the issue of stewardship, not in the religious sense, but in the sense that domestic animals are essentially our slaves and their primary purpose is seen as serving our needs.

Thus, one can, as a thoughless child, pull wings off a fly, without intending to be gratuitously cruel, and one can grow up to be a sensitive nonviolent human.

On the other hand, there are people who delight in the suffering of others, whether they are bugs or little kittens. Those people do tend to grow up with their cruelty intact.

I hope your brother falls into the first category, and not the second.