Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Tercel · 01-12-2003, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill Snedden
You seem to be assuming that only "bad" people end up in hell. According to Orthodox Christianity, that's not at all the case.

Ironically, according to Orthodox Christianity that pretty much is, exactly the case.
I think you mean little-o orthodox as in "standard/non-heretical belief" as opposed to large-O Orthodox as in The (Eastern) Orthodox Church.

The Orthodox Church is not exactly small (Being the second largest church in the world after the Catholics with 225 million according to Adherents.com = 3x the size of the Anglican church and 4x the Baptist) and the number of moderate-liberal Catholics and Protestants who would agree with the Orthodox Church in the matter is probably not small either. Nor have any of the universal Church councils or creeds dealt with the matter.
Thus it is wrong to use even small-o orthodox here.

What you mean is "conservative western Christianity".

Quote:

Our definitions of "good" and "bad" have nothing whatsoever to with salvation, which is conferred only by the grace of God and by no act of man.

An interesting statement coming from an atheist...

Bill Snedden · 01-12-2003, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tercel
I think you mean little-o orthodox as in "standard/non-heretical belief" as opposed to large-O Orthodox as in The (Eastern) Orthodox Church.

You are correct.

Quote:

Originally posted by Tercel
Thus it is wrong to use even small-o orthodox here.

Hmmm....I was raised in the Roman Catholic church and switched to Episcopalian in college. While in college, I was a board member of the school's Wesley-Lutheran foundation and was a not-infrequent guest at the Baptist house. As a musician, I've played services in Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, & Episcopalian churches.

I know that it's orthodox Catholic doctrine because it's part of the Catechism. Determining "orthodox" doctrine outside of the creed is a little difficult for the Protestant faiths, but in all my exposure to diverse Protestant practices, I've never heard any minister or "official" of any of these faith traditions make any statement that would contradict the "salvation through grace" doctrine, and I've heard many directly espouse it.

What am I missing?

Quote:

Originally posted by Tercel
An interesting statement coming from an atheist...

Why so? Is it not a correct assessment of orthodox Christian soteriology?

Regards,

Bill Snedden

LuckyCharm · 01-12-2003, 08:29 PM

Hello Bill and Debbie! Let's try to clear up a few misunderstandings here, okay?

Quote:

Bill said:]
Someone who accepts Christ in the moments before death won't have any visible "fruits", but they are saved nontheless, no?

Please see what I wrote in the first half of the sentence: "But, although we may not pronounce eternal damnation/salvation upon any soul (I was using those as examples -- who knows, but they might not be in heaven right now?)"....

I don't know if Dahmer is in heaven. I don't know if Mahatma Gandhi is, or C.S. Lewis, or Adolph Hitler, or my mother. Neither do you. All I know is that Jesus never called us to "accept" Him, but to follow Him.

I don't know if there is a way provided after death, to do so. I suspect there is, given His words to the thief from the cross. But my opinion is that there is just no way we can know, this side of the grave, who is where, etc...

Quote:

Did you perhaps mean to deny the efficacy of deathbed conversions?

I realize that the atheists are laughing amongst themselves right now, watching Christians debate the fundamentals of their faith...

No, I do not deny their efficacy. It could be that, on the deathbed, the Holy Spirit grants such an overwhelming love for Jesus that a real conversion is achieved. However, I do not believe Jesus will honor a lip-service, "get out of hell free" "sinner's prayer" mouthed at the last moment out of a selfish desire to escape pain. "God is not mocked," remember. And only He can rightly discern the desires of any given heart.

Quote:

Because "good", defined by humans, has nothing necessarily to do with the will of God, which is, for Christians, the only true meaning of "good."

For example, most humans would certainly not classify the massacre of hundreds of men, women, & children as "good". However, if God commanded it, it could be nothing but "good" (cf. the slaughter of the Amelekites).

Killing, slavery, torture, and suffering are "bad" only on human terms. If God commanded you to kill your son (cf. Abraham), it would be "bad" not to do it, no?

His will, not thy will, be done, right?

Thank you for clarifying that, Bill. I am with you there. I had actually been anticipating the old, tired question of, "How can God be good if He..." <insert favorite story of God's alleged cruelty>

Had you responded with such an example, I would have offered exactly the same argument you present.

Quote:

Debbie said:
But then what you are saying is in contradiction to the bible that says if you accept Jesus and ask forgiveness you will be saved.

Could you give me the exact chapter and verse, Debbie?

Thanks,

~~Cheryl

beyelzu · 01-13-2003, 12:04 AM

while i dont know the chapter and verse, debbie refers to the quotation that goes something like" who so ever accpept me as his savior shall receive life everlasting" he doesnt say who so ever accepts me as his savior and does these other things i want done shall receive life everlasting.

Debbie T · 01-13-2003, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by LuckyCharm
I don't know if Dahmer is in heaven. I don't know if Mahatma Gandhi is, or C.S. Lewis, or Adolph Hitler, or my mother. Neither do you. All I know is that Jesus never called us to "accept" Him, but to follow Him.

Yet John 3:16 says: 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

It doesn't say follow it says believe in him. Most Christians I know say you have to ask Jesus into your heart and ask forgiveness.

Quote:

I don't know if there is a way provided after death, to do so. I suspect there is, given His words to the thief from the cross. But my opinion is that there is just no way we can know, this side of the grave, who is where, etc...

Yet you appear to think otherwise in your other post.

Quote:

I realize that the atheists are laughing amongst themselves right now, watching Christians debate the fundamentals of their faith...

I think it is more honest when Christians debate each other rather than stay silent when they don't agree with another Christian at least in an a forum such as this.

Quote:

Thank you for clarifying that, Bill. I am with you there. I had actually been anticipating the old, tired question of, "How can God be good if He..." <insert favorite story of God's alleged cruelty>

Alleged cruelty? Maybe you should read your bible and read about all his cruelty. I am sorry you feel it is tiring for you, but for us that do not believe it is one huge pitfall that Christians can't explain away no matter how hard they try. They either come off as cruel themselves or deluded when the apologetics come forth. Just read your bible it is all there.

Quote:

Could you give me the exact chapter and verse, Debbie?

Sure the one that most children learn as their first memorized verse:

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Daggah · 01-13-2003, 04:24 AM

I'm sorry, LuckyCharm, that you feel that our accusations of "alleged cruelty" are "tiring." As a moral and rational human being, I can't help but feel that any being - god or not - who would sentence anyone to eternal torture for ANYTHING they could do in a finite lifetime is a cruel being.

I wouldn't sentence Hitler to such a thing. And I really, really, REALLY despise Hitler for his crimes against humanity.

Daggah · 01-13-2003, 04:26 AM

Quote:

Awww, that old "gotcha"? Well, since Christianity is all about relationship, this is kinda like asking, "How can a decent person be happily married, knowing there are so many miserable single folks out there?"

Bzzt, not quite analagous. Eternal torture in hell is just a wee little different being unhappy with your life as it stands, don't you think?

Dibble Helix · 01-13-2003, 05:19 AM

You know it really is astounding that intelligent people still believe in the concept of heaven and hell. Surely it is not too difficult to spot a social control mechanism as blatant as this one!

What kind of bizarre 'double-think' does one have to perform to swallow this garbage?

Dibble :banghead:

THE_LEGENDARY_HQB · 01-13-2003, 08:21 AM

Originally posted by Seebs ,refering to the "sinner" label":
You have, at some point in your life, been less than perfectly righteous in all things. How do I know? Experience. To claim otherwise is, as they say, to make an extraordinary claim, and I'd need to see some pretty convincing evidence.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Agreed about the "less than righteous" claim, Seebs. Of course, as we discussed on a seperate thread, that is not the definition of sin, now is it? Sin is any transgression against God. No God, no sin. Period. Since you recognise the old axiom "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof", I eagerly await your "extrardinary proof" for the existence of a God to sin against.

Untill said proof is forthcoming, please don't expect us to agree with you painting us with the same brush of sin you so eagerly paint yourself with.

The fact is, the Bible makes it crystal clear that nice people do, in fact, go to Hell. It even goes so far as to tell people that good works mean nothing to God unless you accept Jesus. Imagine if that worldview became common among non Christians. Don't try to help anyone, don't try to make the world a better place, because all your good works are as "filthy rags". Why do you think so many Christians spend so much time telling their flocks how evil and depraved humanity is?

They have to give the believers a reason to think that the billions of people who, according to their worldview, are born to be human kindling for the white hot fires of a Hell created by their "all loving Father", really deserve their torment. One of the most loathsome aspects of Christianity, is the way it eschews and even denigrates any form of human decency. God couldn't care less about what kind of person you are. Wether you run a Buddhist charity that feeds thousands of starving children, or a knife wielding serial killer, according to the Bible, without Jesus, your final destination is the same. Gods first focus, it seems, is His own glorification, wich He gets by having people grovel to Him. No groveling, no Heaven.

One way I like to reach Christians, especially new ones who haven't been completely brainwashed into their cult, is to ask them about their relatives, politely and sympathetically, of course.
They'll usually have a particularly beloved grandmother or aunt, for example, who died a few years before.

"Was your grandmother a Christian?" I'll ask the local soulwinner..

"Uh, well, she went to chuch, but I don't think she was born again". he'll reply.

"Did you love her?" I'll ask.

"Oh, absolutely! I was devastated by her death!" he'll say.

"Well, right now, as we speak, according to the book you believe is the infallible Word of God, he's being tortured. Burned alive. Screaming in agony. All done by your 'loving God'."

"Erm, well, uh, I can't say she's in Hell! It's not my place to judge!
Only God can sentence a man to Hell!" They'll respond, using the pathetic copout that seems so common on these boards as well.

"Is God omnipresent, with absolute knowledge of past present and future?" I'll ask.

"Well, yeah, of course!" he'll say.

"Well then, that means God knew your grandmother was going to Hell before the beginning of time. In fact, the Bible says that some are chosen for salvation, and others for everlasting punishment. So, if God didn't want her in Hell, then He wouldn't have put her there, now would He?" I say.

"Well, maybe God gave her a chance to repent after death!" he'll sputter, visibly uncomfortable by now.

Maybe? Well, you're not supposed to add to the Bible, and I've never seen anything about after death repentance in there, have you? "For it is appointed unto man once to die, and after this, the judgement", right? And what, exactly, is the judgement, according to the Bible, for all nonbelievers?"

I usually let them ruminate on that thought. If I see them witnessing in the next few weeks, I'll remind them of "God's wonderful plan".

"She's still in agony, and an eternity to go!" I'll say.

This sounds incredibly harsh, I know. But it just breaks my heart to see 14 year old kids passing out Bible tracts on a streetcorner, spouting the shopworn phrases they learned in Sunday School, without ever pondering the deeper meanings behind some of their most cherished beliefs. If I can stear them away from the self doubt, self loathing, and hatred of the world that Christianity forces upon them, I like to think I've done something positive.

Respect,
The Legendary HQB.

seebs · 01-13-2003, 09:04 AM

Unfortunately, that only works on people who are 100% sure that "born-again" is the big thing. I'm more in line with the Catholics on this; salvation is a long and ongoing process, and it is not mine to judge who has or hasn't done well enough. I don't know what people believed in their hearts, or what guided them; at most, I know what they said, and I know that people lie, even to themselves.

So, I have never met or heard of a person I can say with certainty went to Hell. Not once.

BTW, I don't see any reason to believe that all true things are found in the Bible; if God allows some people to repent after death, that's very nice of him, and He is under no obligation to mention it. Makes for rather a nice surprise, if that's what He does.

I see your argument as pure sophistry; it attacks a straw man of what most Christians believe, although I'd guess that it works okay on fundamentalists.

01-13-2003, 05:19 AM	#38
Dibble Helix Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: UK Posts: 473	as an aside .. You know it really is astounding that intelligent people still believe in the concept of heaven and hell. Surely it is not too difficult to spot a social control mechanism as blatant as this one! What kind of bizarre 'double-think' does one have to perform to swallow this garbage? Dibble :banghead:

01-13-2003, 08:21 AM	#39
THE_LEGENDARY_HQB Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Tewksbury, Mass., USA Posts: 170	HITLER AND GHANDHI. ANY DIFFERENCE? NOT ACCRDING TO CHRISTIANITY! Originally posted by Seebs ,refering to the "sinner" label": You have, at some point in your life, been less than perfectly righteous in all things. How do I know? Experience. To claim otherwise is, as they say, to make an extraordinary claim, and I'd need to see some pretty convincing evidence. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Agreed about the "less than righteous" claim, Seebs. Of course, as we discussed on a seperate thread, that is not the definition of sin, now is it? Sin is any transgression against God. No God, no sin. Period. Since you recognise the old axiom "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof", I eagerly await your "extrardinary proof" for the existence of a God to sin against. Untill said proof is forthcoming, please don't expect us to agree with you painting us with the same brush of sin you so eagerly paint yourself with. The fact is, the Bible makes it crystal clear that nice people do, in fact, go to Hell. It even goes so far as to tell people that good works mean nothing to God unless you accept Jesus. Imagine if that worldview became common among non Christians. Don't try to help anyone, don't try to make the world a better place, because all your good works are as "filthy rags". Why do you think so many Christians spend so much time telling their flocks how evil and depraved humanity is? They have to give the believers a reason to think that the billions of people who, according to their worldview, are born to be human kindling for the white hot fires of a Hell created by their "all loving Father", really deserve their torment. One of the most loathsome aspects of Christianity, is the way it eschews and even denigrates any form of human decency. God couldn't care less about what kind of person you are. Wether you run a Buddhist charity that feeds thousands of starving children, or a knife wielding serial killer, according to the Bible, without Jesus, your final destination is the same. Gods first focus, it seems, is His own glorification, wich He gets by having people grovel to Him. No groveling, no Heaven. One way I like to reach Christians, especially new ones who haven't been completely brainwashed into their cult, is to ask them about their relatives, politely and sympathetically, of course. They'll usually have a particularly beloved grandmother or aunt, for example, who died a few years before. "Was your grandmother a Christian?" I'll ask the local soulwinner.. "Uh, well, she went to chuch, but I don't think she was born again". he'll reply. "Did you love her?" I'll ask. "Oh, absolutely! I was devastated by her death!" he'll say. "Well, right now, as we speak, according to the book you believe is the infallible Word of God, he's being tortured. Burned alive. Screaming in agony. All done by your 'loving God'." "Erm, well, uh, I can't say she's in Hell! It's not my place to judge! Only God can sentence a man to Hell!" They'll respond, using the pathetic copout that seems so common on these boards as well. "Is God omnipresent, with absolute knowledge of past present and future?" I'll ask. "Well, yeah, of course!" he'll say. "Well then, that means God knew your grandmother was going to Hell before the beginning of time. In fact, the Bible says that some are chosen for salvation, and others for everlasting punishment. So, if God didn't want her in Hell, then He wouldn't have put her there, now would He?" I say. "Well, maybe God gave her a chance to repent after death!" he'll sputter, visibly uncomfortable by now. Maybe? Well, you're not supposed to add to the Bible, and I've never seen anything about after death repentance in there, have you? "For it is appointed unto man once to die, and after this, the judgement", right? And what, exactly, is the judgement, according to the Bible, for all nonbelievers?" I usually let them ruminate on that thought. If I see them witnessing in the next few weeks, I'll remind them of "God's wonderful plan". "She's still in agony, and an eternity to go!" I'll say. This sounds incredibly harsh, I know. But it just breaks my heart to see 14 year old kids passing out Bible tracts on a streetcorner, spouting the shopworn phrases they learned in Sunday School, without ever pondering the deeper meanings behind some of their most cherished beliefs. If I can stear them away from the self doubt, self loathing, and hatred of the world that Christianity forces upon them, I like to think I've done something positive. Respect, The Legendary HQB.

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01-13-2003, 12:04 AM	#34
beyelzu Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: the peach state ga I am a metaphysical naturalist Posts: 2,869	while i dont know the chapter and verse, debbie refers to the quotation that goes something like" who so ever accpept me as his savior shall receive life everlasting" he doesnt say who so ever accepts me as his savior and does these other things i want done shall receive life everlasting.

01-13-2003, 04:24 AM	#36
Daggah Banned Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Deployed to Kosovo Posts: 4,314	I'm sorry, LuckyCharm, that you feel that our accusations of "alleged cruelty" are "tiring." As a moral and rational human being, I can't help but feel that any being - god or not - who would sentence anyone to eternal torture for ANYTHING they could do in a finite lifetime is a cruel being. I wouldn't sentence Hitler to such a thing. And I really, really, REALLY despise Hitler for his crimes against humanity.

01-13-2003, 09:04 AM	#40
seebs Contributor Join Date: May 2002 Location: Saint Paul, MN Posts: 24,524	Unfortunately, that only works on people who are 100% sure that "born-again" is the big thing. I'm more in line with the Catholics on this; salvation is a long and ongoing process, and it is not mine to judge who has or hasn't done well enough. I don't know what people believed in their hearts, or what guided them; at most, I know what they said, and I know that people lie, even to themselves. So, I have never met or heard of a person I can say with certainty went to Hell. Not once. BTW, I don't see any reason to believe that all true things are found in the Bible; if God allows some people to repent after death, that's very nice of him, and He is under no obligation to mention it. Makes for rather a nice surprise, if that's what He does. I see your argument as pure sophistry; it attacks a straw man of what most Christians believe, although I'd guess that it works okay on fundamentalists.

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