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LUVLUV:I don't remember asking whether or not Luther was a nice guy, I asked whether or not Luther could think for himself.
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No one has intimated that you asked if Luther was a "nice guy". The observation was that he wasn't, given the often delusional, bigoted, mean-spirited attitudes he displayed. This is an example of a Christian "thinker"? In other words, what is it about Luther that qualifies him as a "thinker"? (I know I'm not impressed with his "thinking", why are you?)
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LUVLUV: It's a ridiculous stereotype to say that Christians cannot think for themselves. . . . In fact, Christians are by far the most disputatious group of individuals in organized religion. How can you explain the phenomenon of denominationalism with your belief that Christians cannot think for themselves?
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Again, I find the "denominationalism' argument as evidence of "thinking" unpersuasive. If one looks at what all the bruhaha is about, in most cases to quote Elizabeth the Great, "they are but great disputes about trifles". (One characteristic of her reign was that is was relatively free of the vicious religious persecution that so characterized the reigns of her fellow monarchs, such as King Philip II of Spain). "A lot of sound and fury over naught" (with homicidal consequences in too many cases in this "disputatious denominationalism" over who is exemplfies the TRUE Christian™ ). The fact that there are thousands of sects is in itself an argument against the Christian paradigm. IF the Christian God were Creator of this Universe(countless galaxies, quasars, pulsars, dark matter, black holes, etc), then such a Being should be perfectly capable of giving CRYSTAL CLEAR instructions to His followers that did not have mulitiple interpretations (why hide and obfuscate everything?).
Carl Sagan was once asked what would constitute proof that the Christian God existed and he said how about a "burning Cross in the Sky"? I say forget the "burning cross in the sky", how about some clarity for starters..................
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LUVLUV:You do realize, of course, that more work has been put into debunking the logical proofs of God BY CHRISTIANS than by atheists? (Particularly for the ontological argument, which, besides Hume, has been debunked mostly by theists. Then there are folks like Kierkegard IIRC, who believe that people should not even attempt proofs)
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The fact that theists have debunked many of the old arguments for the existence of God and they are STILL theists, looks like more cognitive dissonance to me and is adds credence to Mark Chid's statement to which you later object:
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: I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Many of you are just out and out bigots. Take this gem for example:
MARK: "its my experience from having had some very smart friends who are Christians that belief prevents CERTAIN thoughts. Its as if a small area of the brain is walled off with 'don't touch' and therefore certain questions simply don't get rational responses. Sometimes its quite shocking to see this in action."
How would that be different from me saying, for example, that in my experience with black people they all like fried chicken?
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Where in Mark's statement did he say that all Christians were stupid ("all black people like fried chicken"). This just doesn't look like a blanket indictment of Christian "smarts" to me. However, like you said, famous theists have blasted many "proofs of God" and they are still theists (the persons your mention don't have any evidence either and still they BELIEVE). Mark was pointing out that even the most brilliant person will somehow manage to "ignore" any evidence that gainsays their "religious programming" . In other words, they have too much "invested' in believing and feel too threatened to examine any evidence that "threatens" that investment (a classic example of psychological compartmentalization). It is kind of like a person with a memory that is too painful and psychologically devastating to face, so he "forgets" it (out of sight, out of mind with the awful truth that there is no evidence for God), I find your characterization of Mark's statement to be a strawman for the above reason.
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LUVLUV: Answer: it ain't different. Both statments are bigoted extrapolations from limited data.
One day you folks will realize that intelligent, open-minded people can disagree with you.
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Where has anyone ever said that Christians are NECESSARILY close-minded and clueless?
Just how delusional some Christians can be see some of
<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=47&t=000272&p=" target="_blank">Douglas Bender's remarks here</a>
<img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" /> <img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" />
[ August 31, 2002: Message edited by: mfaber ]
[ August 31, 2002: Message edited by: mfaber ]</p>
08-31-2002, 10:07 AM
