Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Autonemesis · 10-09-2002, 06:22 PM

Back the truck up, pal! Before any question of god's existence obtains even the slightest hint of relevance, the existence of an eternal soul needs to be established.

Some believers would have me regard myself as a kind of meat puppet, with a soul snuggled inside like Shari Lewis' hand making the eyebrows furrow and the lips scowl at such a ludicrous idea. Either that, or I am said to be a body being driven by remote control from some ethereal plane or somesuch, by the "real me" that exists eternally "in another place", or whatever. Some kind of human Aibo, I guess.

There's about as many implausible descriptions of souls as there are implausible descriptions of God.

Yes, that is a scornful tone you detect in my writings. Because not only am I to accept some sort of scenario like the ones I described, but my operator - "the real me" - lives on after the body dies, somehow, somewhere, some-mode... <deep breath> and a lot of you soulists think it can suffer! (Or feel joy).

The problem with this is that I couldn't be myself without my body, and neither could you. I AM my body, that is the "real me". I am not a meat puppet, but I am meat. Very smart meat. Arthur C. Clarke wrote "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." The meaning of that statement is that it's not necessary to invoke mysticism whenever a mystery is seen.

Yeah, it's a pretty interesting question (understatement) how meat can give rise to mind. No one has the answers to how that happens in detail. Bits and pieces here and there, the picture is far from complete. But it is apparent that this is what is happening, and not that some mystical eternal energy essense (*** see below) is inhabiting or controlling a temporary physical form.

Without your mind, you are not yourself, and without your body, you can have no mind. Your mind arises from an organ that evolved to process sensory data from eyes, ears, etc. Isn't it interesting that people who report out of body experiences see in color and hear sounds and voices in their recollected visions? How can a disembodied soul see and hear without eyes and ears, and a without brain that evolved to process sensory data from those organs?

So if anything that's essential to myself survives my death, it couldn't have my present sense of self, that I possess today while living (as far as you know). That's as good as oblivion as far as I'm concerned. No difference at all.

So before you go on about God, I don't have a soul and neither do you, so the question is moot. But if you've got another idea I haven't already torn to shreds, lay it on me.

(*** What do we call this thing? Soul? Spirit? Essense? I don't want to leave any soul-believers out. What's an all-encompassing term that won't get us bogged down into doctrinal differences?)

[ October 09, 2002: Message edited by: Kind Bud ]</p>

Pitshade · 10-09-2002, 06:45 PM

This isn't really RRP material.

Dark Jedi · 10-09-2002, 07:48 PM

Wow. It's pretty impressive to get booted from RRP!

Eudaimonist · 10-10-2002, 05:44 AM

Naw, it's easy. You simply have to write something intelligent and non-ranty.

Kosh · 10-10-2002, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kind Bud:
[QB
Some believers would have me regard myself as a kind of meat puppet, with a soul snuggled inside like Shari Lewis' hand making the eyebrows furrow and the lips scowl at such a ludicrous idea.
[/QB]

He he. "Meat Puppet". Thanks for the laugh!

In HS, I worked in a butcher dept. The butcher would take the whole chickens, stick his hand him them, and do a "Mr. Bill" type of voice. It was really funny. Then again, I was 16.

Shake · 10-10-2002, 07:34 AM

The Meat Puppets? Yeah, they were great in concert ... oops! That's not what this thread is about.

Autonemesis · 10-10-2002, 09:13 AM

Dammit, I was trying to rant! I was trying to provoke. I intended to twist some titties!

Jamie_L · 10-10-2002, 09:26 AM

Don't some (or all - I'm not a scholar) versions of Judaism involve man as meat? That is, there is no soul, and once your dead, that's it.

I think it's quite possible to talk about God and us still all be meat. In this case, we're all meat puppets, and God is the puppeteer.

"Dance! Dance my pretty meat puppets! Here! Have some cancer. And a little brain damage from that head injury. Hah-hah!"

Me, I'm a meat puppet with no strings. "I got no strings, to hold me down. To make me smile, or make me frown!"

Now, I'm just a little leery of that pleasure island thing.

Save me, Blue Fairy! Save me!

Or something. (Just trying to keep Kind Bud's ranty thing going.)

Jamie

Ab_Normal · 10-10-2002, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kind Bud:
<strong>Dammit, I was trying to rant! I was trying to provoke. I intended to twist some titties!</strong>

Umm, dude, just how many Infidels do you think believe in soul-stuff?

I'd have to put on my theist hat (the one that cuts off circulation to my higher brain centers) in order to be able to argue with you, and my boss would really rather have me thinking so I can finish this project.

10-09-2002, 06:22 PM	#1
Autonemesis Contributor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: I've left FRDB for good, due to new WI&P policy Posts: 12,048	Meat Puppetry Back the truck up, pal! Before any question of god's existence obtains even the slightest hint of relevance, the existence of an eternal soul needs to be established. Some believers would have me regard myself as a kind of meat puppet, with a soul snuggled inside like Shari Lewis' hand making the eyebrows furrow and the lips scowl at such a ludicrous idea. Either that, or I am said to be a body being driven by remote control from some ethereal plane or somesuch, by the "real me" that exists eternally "in another place", or whatever. Some kind of human Aibo, I guess. There's about as many implausible descriptions of souls as there are implausible descriptions of God. Yes, that is a scornful tone you detect in my writings. Because not only am I to accept some sort of scenario like the ones I described, but my operator - "the real me" - lives on after the body dies, somehow, somewhere, some-mode... <deep breath> and a lot of you soulists think it can suffer! (Or feel joy). The problem with this is that I couldn't be myself without my body, and neither could you. I AM my body, that is the "real me". I am not a meat puppet, but I am meat. Very smart meat. Arthur C. Clarke wrote "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." The meaning of that statement is that it's not necessary to invoke mysticism whenever a mystery is seen. Yeah, it's a pretty interesting question (understatement) how meat can give rise to mind. No one has the answers to how that happens in detail. Bits and pieces here and there, the picture is far from complete. But it is apparent that this is what is happening, and not that some mystical eternal energy essense (* see below) is inhabiting or controlling a temporary physical form. Without your mind, you are not yourself, and without your body, you can have no mind. Your mind arises from an organ that evolved to process sensory data from eyes, ears, etc. Isn't it interesting that people who report out of body experiences see in color and hear sounds and voices in their recollected visions? How can a disembodied soul see and hear without eyes and ears, and a without brain that evolved to process sensory data from those organs? So if anything that's essential to myself survives my death, it couldn't have my present sense of self, that I possess today while living (as far as you know). That's as good as oblivion as far as I'm concerned. No difference at all. So before you go on about God, I don't have a soul and neither do you, so the question is moot. But if you've got another idea I haven't already torn to shreds, lay it on me. (* What do we call this thing? Soul? Spirit? Essense? I don't want to leave any soul-believers out. What's an all-encompassing term that won't get us bogged down into doctrinal differences?) [ October 09, 2002: Message edited by: Kind Bud ]</p>

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10-09-2002, 06:45 PM	#2
Pitshade Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Sugar Grove,NC Posts: 4,316	This isn't really RRP material.

10-09-2002, 07:48 PM	#3
Dark Jedi Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Afghanistan Posts: 4,666	Wow. It's pretty impressive to get booted from RRP!

10-10-2002, 05:44 AM	#4
Eudaimonist Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Sundsvall, Sweden Posts: 3,159	Naw, it's easy. You simply have to write something intelligent and non-ranty.

10-10-2002, 07:34 AM	#6
Shake Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Folding@Home in upstate NY Posts: 14,394	The Meat Puppets? Yeah, they were great in concert ... oops! That's not what this thread is about.

10-10-2002, 09:13 AM	#7
Autonemesis Contributor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: I've left FRDB for good, due to new WI&P policy Posts: 12,048	Dammit, I was trying to rant! I was trying to provoke. I intended to twist some titties!

10-10-2002, 09:26 AM	#8
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	Don't some (or all - I'm not a scholar) versions of Judaism involve man as meat? That is, there is no soul, and once your dead, that's it. I think it's quite possible to talk about God and us still all be meat. In this case, we're all meat puppets, and God is the puppeteer. "Dance! Dance my pretty meat puppets! Here! Have some cancer. And a little brain damage from that head injury. Hah-hah!" Me, I'm a meat puppet with no strings. "I got no strings, to hold me down. To make me smile, or make me frown!" Now, I'm just a little leery of that pleasure island thing. Save me, Blue Fairy! Save me! Or something. (Just trying to keep Kind Bud's ranty thing going.) Jamie

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