jlowder

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/pledge.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/pledge.shtml</a>

Buffman

I do not pledge allegiance to a piece of ever changing cloth. I pledge allegiance "to the republic for which it(that current flag) stands."

Since that federal republic was brought into being by the ratification of the U.S.Constitution and Bill of Rights, then it is to that Constitution that I am pledging...not to a flag or anyone's God(s).

When our elected officials take office, they do solemnly swear (or affirm) that they will faithfully execute the Office of [fill-in as appropriate] of the United States, and will to the best of their ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States....
not the flag of the USA. They should be required to take their oaths of office with a hand on the Constitution, not a religious icon of just two sectarian faith beliefs.

schu

The pledge of allegiance is nationalistic propaganda, pure and simple. Why would we want such a work of indoctrination in our public schools anyway? Simple, the schools are government schools and the government wants to shore up its support by getting the children indoctrinated into accepting that loving ones country means by default that you must love the government and the flag which is its symbol.

When another government gets belligerent and acts against the interest of the government of this country all the President has to do is a little flag waving and talk about a war and the peons are ready to get on airplanes and go around the world ready to slaughter other peoples in the name of freedom. It doesn't matter one whit that our congress, which is charged by the constitution with declaring a war, hasn't in over fifty years taken on this responsibility. Nope, the President goes about the world killing and maiming all he wants without any formal declaration of war from the people's representatives.

How long will it be before this government turns its war machine on dissenter in this country? Well, it has already happened in the case of Ruby Ridge, Waco and other incidents.

This nationalism is exemplified in the flag burning issue. When you hear the Rush Limbaugh types declare that it is okay to beat up people who burn the flag, you can know that nationalism is alive and well in the good ol' US of A. Think about it, when this government has degenerated into fascism to the point of tyranny will you be able to burn a flag in protest? Not many did in Hitler's Germany. Those who did eventually protest paid with their lives

<a href="http://www.jlrweb.com/whiterose/" target="_blank">http://www.jlrweb.com/whiterose/</a>

I think nationalism is contrary to a free people. Where nationalism reigns, freedom is wanting.

[ July 18, 2002: Message edited by: schu ]</p>

Buffman

schu

The pledge of allegiance is nationalistic propaganda, pure and simple.

Do you see any difference between nationalistic jingoism and nationalistic pride? I have lived in other countries throughout the world. I was very proud to be an American...until this latest group of religious fanatics captured control of our country and seem hell-bent on undermining our constitutional freedoms/liberties in order to establish their own form of theocratic nation. I believe that it is their theistic propaganda that is undermining our national pride and promises of tolerance, good will, equal opportunity and fairness to all.

If you have a lack of confidence in the government of our country, help to educate the public and vote the idiots out. We get exactly the kind of government we deserve. One purchased by the "wealthy" vested interests or one that actually upholds our Constitution.

The radical Christian right is a minority in this country. It is time for the majority to take back their Constitutional government...or admit that a democtratic federal republic is a failed system of self-government.

schu

At the risk of being more off topic I would like to answer your thoughtful question. I make a distinction between nationalism and patriotism that is quite distinct. Patriotism is a love for the people and the land, i.e.: pa·tri·ot·ism (p³"tr¶-…-t¹z"…m) n. Love of and devotion to one's country. Nothing here about government.

Nationalism is not so well defined, and in fact has several meanings. I use it to include undue support for the government. The knee jerk, mindless support for government. The same kind of
brainless support one sees people give religion.

I too have lived in other countries and even now spend time in an other country. I have to say, I'm not too taken with pride. When our country killed as many as 5000 innocent people to extract or kill the leader of Panama I wasn't to prideful. The wanton dropping of bombs in the barrios in the off chance of killing Noriega should make any moral people sick. I saw on television in another country the excavation of a mass grave where our military had used bulldozers to bury the bodies of the mass murdered.

The support of our government to keep authoritarian governments in power as we do in Colombia should not be a point of pride. The so called war on drugs by itself should enlighten people on how far from a free country we are. We interfere with governments all over the world to a degree that obstructs the peoples ability to become self governing. Remember the famous words, "He may be a dictator, but he is our dictator".

I could love the ideals this country was founded on, except it wasn't even believed at the time of founding! The wonderful words of T. Jefferson on liberty while he owned slaves! Geo. Washington's intimidation of the German people of western Pennsylvania during the whisky rebellion who were guilty of believing that if they produced something with their own hands they had a right to the whole of it.

You are correct to "believe that it is their theistic propaganda that is undermining our national pride and promises of tolerance, good will, equal opportunity and fairness to all." But I see a more systemic problem in the system that declares by its tax code that I owe half of what I produce to government. A government that spends the money they collect by coercion in great part on things they have no right to be involved in. Where in the constitution does it say government is to educate our children? This may seem like a small thing, but school taxes are a large part of the taxation in this country. It causes other constitutional problems too when they force people to attend their schools. Then they use the school system to indoctrinate our children in their nationalism.

I have voted against big government all of my life to no effect. When people think they can vote for people who will give them something in stead of people who will defend their rights the system stops working. When the government can take what it wants with out the support of the people the system stops working.

I have lots of other things I would like to add here, but my time is limited. I hope this helps answer your question.

Schu

Buffman

schu

I agree with your distinction between Patriotism and the Government (whichever administration happens to hold the current power of the state). That is why I feel so strongly about a federal republic form of government. One that has been democratically (and honestly) elected and supported by an educated and accurately informed public. Ahhhhh, there's the rub!

Nationalism is not so well defined, and in fact has several meanings

I suspect that is the motivator of these few, off subject, posts. That is why I used "jingoism" as opposed to "pride." Am I proud of everything our governments have done in our name in the past...or today? Of course not! However, our Constitution "used to" provide the mechanism to remove those fault filled governments, and individuals...especially Supreme Court judges, from power. Unfortunately for the majority of Americans, it seems that the vested interests have purchased our government using religious zealotry as a convenient, and winning, front organization.---The real question that seems to frighten many of the religious fundamentalists is whether this world has reached the point where nationalism has become a bane, rather than a boon, to the survival of humankind. (Why does America, of all the nations of the world, need a national space shield if it is "under God?" Isn't that a pretty straight forward admission that no supernatural God is going to protect us?)

I have little argument with anything you cite other than the "I saw on television in another country the excavation of a mass grave where our military had used bulldozers to bury the bodies of the mass murdered." (On this item, I would request more verifiable detail.)

And completely off subject, the tax codes merely allow our government to pretend to be capitalistic while actually being socialist. However, I see no possibility of anything positive coming from returning to a frontier mentality...at least not on this planet.

schu

<a href="http://thewinds.arcsnet.net/archive/war/a102896b.html" target="_blank">http://thewinds.arcsnet.net/archive/war/a102896b.html</a>

And look what else big government has done for us.

<a href="http://www.fff.org/comment/com0207d.asp" target="_blank">http://www.fff.org/comment/com0207d.asp</a>

[ July 19, 2002: Message edited by: schu ]</p>

Autonemesis

Jeff, "Failure in Broadcasting" means you were unable to achieve ratings high enough to sell advertising at the prices your syndicator and financiers anticipated. Excellence is the opposite condition.

If only Limbaugh's listeners understood this.

Buffman

schu

Thanks for the links. Here are some expanded insights.

<a href="http://thewinds.arcsnet.net/archive/war/a102896b.html" target="_blank">http://thewinds.arcsnet.net/archive/war/a102896b.html</a>

It is asserted during the documentary that there are many mass graves within Panama but are located within the U.S. military controlled zone and are not accessible.

If there, they have been accessible for quite some time now. How many have been found within the former U.S. Military controlled zone?

This is who "The Winds" really are:

<a href="http://www.strongcity.com/winds.html" target="_blank">http://www.strongcity.com/winds.html</a>

<a href="http://www.strongcity.com/" target="_blank">http://www.strongcity.com/</a>

A dissenting U.S. "Media" view.

<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/longterm/movies/videos/thepanamadeceptionnrhinson_a0a7bd.htm" target="_blank">http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/longterm/movies/videos/thepanamadeceptionnrhinson_a0a7bd.htm</a>

Could these be some of the "mass graves" that were unearthed?

<a href="http://www.desaparecidos.org/panama/eng.html" target="_blank">http://www.desaparecidos.org/panama/eng.html</a>

More statistics. Whose are the most accurate?

<a href="http://www.onwar.com/aced/data/papa/panamaus1989.htm" target="_blank">http://www.onwar.com/aced/data/papa/panamaus1989.htm</a>

&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&g t;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&g t;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt ; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&g t;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&g t;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;

<a href="http://www.fff.org/comment/com0207d.asp" target="_blank">http://www.fff.org/comment/com0207d.asp</a>

Just so everyone knows who is behind this organization.

<a href="http://www.fff.org/aboutUs/index.asp" target="_blank">http://www.fff.org/aboutUs/index.asp</a>

schu

Lets see, we should disparage the message because we don't agree with the messenger? Tell me, what fault do you find with the FFF? I guess some people are against freedom and don't want any in their future? Reminds me of what RGI said, "Some people imagine themselves free when they are allowed to examine their chains.

By Hal Hinson
Washington Post Staff Writer
October 17, 1992
"Because the American press was largely shut out of the conflict, what actually happened during the three-day conflict remains shrouded in mystery."

The writer here says we can't know what happened. He quotes the government figures as 220 dead civilians. How does it matter which figure is correct? Probably neither is and the total is somewhere in between. Were we justified in killing 220? Should we be proud of our governments involvement in trying to kill or extraditing a foreign leader? Did our congress declare a war as is prescribed by the constitution?

You may be justified in quibbling about the number of innocent we killed, but the reason you can quibble is the government shut out the press. So now you can defend their numbers and denounce anyone else's.

When I was made aware of the amount of government lying in the Waco debacle I learned to be super skeptical about any government statements. On the warrant the federal government used to invade the compound they lied about almost everything they were doing. They lied about the child abuse. People from the area child welfare had already investigated that and found there was none. They lied about the automatic weapons. There where gun dealers there who were allowed to have automatic weapons legally. They absolutely lied about the drug dealing. These people considered their bodies temples of god and thought drugs would pollute it.

You may want to quibble about these facts, but one thing you can know is that those children did not have to die. They died because of the belligerence and arrogance of people in our government.

If the media had done it's job and walked to the Waco compound in defiance of the governments illegal orders to stay back three miles the children would not have died.

If the government is allowed to indoctrinate our children with their pledge to nationalism as they are doing, I think we can expect less freedom in our future.