Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Eldy · 06-23-2002, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ryanfire:
Eldy, those are blind assertions from a lack of understanding(and education). You're grasping for something that is not present, or proven to exist.

They've recorded a whole range of sounds from dolphins and discovered a growing language. The mirror test did prove self awareness. A dolphin observed the mirror and made bubbles and realized it was him/her. A noise similar to laughter came from the dolphin.

There is nothing spiritual about the world, we do not possess magic skills, or transcend the laws of nature.

Spirtuality could best be described as an emotion to the *common* good of man.

From Eldy: There have been some very good comments made in response to my list of spiritual attributes found (I believe) in the human being, which mostly are not found in the lower animals. Admittedly, you have pointed out that some are.

Here is my list of what is spirituality, which comes from a book that might not be too popular on this site, but nonetheless they are informative: I am not attempting to prove something by another something that is not acceptable as proof; I only give it to express what I think spirituality is. It is not churches and priests and rules and dogmas.

Beginning with Galatians 5:22.
22. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23. Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

I maintain and I believe everyone who is loving, joyful, peaceful, patient, gentle, good, and faithful, are demonstrating their spiritual natures. There is so much horse manure added on to the simple spirituality of this list that it is sickening and ridiculous.

Who could oppose this kind of spirituality? I appreciate your kind and gentle and measured responses.

Eldy · 06-23-2002, 10:09 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Eldy:
[QB]How about this topic?: Resolved, that all human beings ARE spiritual beings, whether believer or unbeliever, because they demonstrate spiritual characteristics that are not found among the other animal or the vegetable kindgoms.

Supporting commentary in the oritinal post.

4. Human beings can understand the concept of truth. They know there are true and untrue facts.

Someone asked about "concept of the truth" in contrast to "truth" itself. Example for illustration: 1 plus 1 equals 2. This is a fact and it is true.

"All cows eat grass." True.
"All cows eat grass only." False. They might eat leaves and heads of lettuce.

Conceptually, we understand that some things are true and some things are false.

We can all discuss what is true, and what is false, and agree or disagree greatly, but I believe it may be as given that we know that some things are true and some things are false.

I do not believe that any animals can get this far.

The space between my ability to recognize truth in comparison to that of even the most intelligent horse or ape is chasmic and cosmic.

All evidence indicates that something cannot come from nothing. We cannot cite in our experience even one case of where intelligence came from non-intelligence, nor life from non-life, nor love from non-love.

There is not one instance of where self-awareness came from non-awareness. Not one.

The count among human being right now is 6 billion to zero on self-awareness coming from non-awareness.

Atheists can ignore this point, and calmly live out their life as a piece of clay (no one can do this, can he?), or they can recognize that failing to apprehend the need for a "first cause," is a great leap of faith.

In other words, it takes a lot of faith to accept a world in which they exist, and not have some logical and faithful explanation for such cause.

Please don't ask me to believe that something can come from nothing, even once.

And I am just as helpless in explaining God as the "first cause." But I admit that I act on faith.

GunnerJ · 06-23-2002, 10:09 AM

Your Biblical interpritive skills, and reasoning skills, need a bit of work.

Quote:

Here is my list of what is spirituality, which comes from a book that might not be too popular on this site, but nonetheless they are informative: I am not attempting to prove something by another something that is not acceptable as proof; I only give it to express what I think spirituality is. It is not churches and priests and rules and dogmas.

Beginning with Galatians 5:22.
22. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23. Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

If you had any intellectual honesty, you would have checked the context of the quote. It doesn't refer to "gifts of spirituality" but "gifts of the Spirit." And not just any spirit; Paul is preaching about a very specific spirit- the Holy Spirit, the thrid, and least well understood (as well as least well explained) member of the Christian Trinity. If you read the entire chapter five of Glaltians, you will see that Paul is preaching on how to be one with Christ, and the difference between those who have the (Holy) Spirit, and those who do not.

He is talking about people, human beings, here, Eldy, whom you have stated all have this "Spirit," and yet the passage you quoted was lifted from a letter claiming that some people do not have "the Spirit." Please be more careful next time.

In addition, when you claim that "everyone who is loving, joyful, peaceful, patient, gentle, good, and faithful, are demonstrating their spiritual natures," you divorce yourself from the main point of your post, that humans are "spiritual beings." The qualities listed require no supernatural explanation, and indicate none. I know of no one who would argue with you that these are desirable qualities, but you have yet to show that this is any kind of "spirituality."

Quote:

There is so much horse manure added on to the simple spirituality of this list that it is sickening and ridiculous.

Oh, you mean the context of the quote? Is that the horseshit you refer to?

[ June 23, 2002: Message edited by: Rimstalker ]

GunnerJ · 06-23-2002, 10:12 AM

Quote:

"All cows eat grass." True.

[pedanticmode] False. Some cows, doubtless, die too young to have ingested anything other than milk. [/pedanticmode]

06-23-2002, 10:43 AM

The argument seems to be based upon the tacit equivocation of spirituality in the spooky, superstitious sense with spirituality in the humanistic sense.

Ojuice5001 · 06-23-2002, 11:14 AM

I notice a lot of people are refuting this argument by saying that animals exhibit the traits of Eldy's list. That is not a good way to disprove supernaturalism, people! These things are still spiritual characteristics, and if warm-blooded animals exhibit them too, the proper conclusion is not naturalism, but the extension of the term "spiritual" to include warm-blooded animals. If you stepped away from the two-sided debate between Christianity and materialism, and towards an appreciation of pagan supernaturalism, you would see that both humans and warm-blooded animals have souls.

Jobar · 06-23-2002, 12:07 PM

Like so many of the terms we use to talk about religion, we simply have no agreed-upon definition of what 'spiritual' means.

I understand that Eldy is attempting to define it, but I have to point out that all the points he makes seem to spring from completely material causes- which is not to say that spirituality and materiality are necessarily mutually self-exclusive. However, most of the definitions which are offered to us, by Christians especially, claim to transcend the material. Eldy, do you claim that there is some aspect of spirituality which is 'above' or 'beyond' the world of seas and cities, math and matter?

Gemma Therese · 06-23-2002, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Deggial:
I think you have misstaken spirituallity for intelligence.

BTW, what is spirituallity anyway?
anyone?

[ June 23, 2002: Message edited by: Elvis ]

[ June 23, 2002: Message edited by: Deggial ]

Spirituality: The quality or condition of being spiritual; attachment to or regard for things of the spirit as opposed to material or wordly interests.

(Oxford English Dictionary)

Gemma Therese

Ryanfire · 06-23-2002, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Spirituality: The quality or condition of being spiritual; attachment to or regard for things of the spirit as opposed to material or wordly interests.

Gemma and Eldy,

Another words:
I want to cast magical spells, levitate, use telepathy, perform acts above and beyond the laws of nature, physics, and science. Correct?

Simple explanation... fantasy world.

Would you consider the magician David Blane spritual because he can levitate? or would you realize it's just an illusion for which your eyes can't percieve the truth? (playing on your senses).

If you consider fantasy, lllusions, lies, deception, or other trickery used on the human mind(concept of god) to be spiritual, then yes, we are all capable of being spiritual

Quote:

loving, joyful, peaceful, patient, gentle, good, and faithful, are demonstrating their spiritual natures

Spritual.... natures! There you go, nature it is. Emotions and simple behavioural patterns of humans. Nothing supernatural or above the laws of anything previously stated above.

Use the force Luke, use the force!

[ June 23, 2002: Message edited by: Ryanfire ]

philechat · 06-23-2002, 02:26 PM

On spirituality:

People often confuse the meaning of spirituality. I have yet to hear anyone who could come up with a satisfying definition about it. What does "the attachment to the Spirit" mean? Why do people who do not believe in supernaturalism "but a piece of dirt"? I don't really follow the logic over here.

Here is a definition of spirituality without theological baggages, since people of different religions seem to think their religion is the best source (or worse, ONLY source) to transcendence, which mean nothing to me because I do not subscribe to the theology of any religion.

Spirituality: The concern with matters that are not directly related to subsistence or social gains. The thoughts about concepts, patterns, and meanings behind particular occurances. The preference of big-picture oriented, life-affirming, creative endeavors. Ability to see experience from a variety of perspectives.

Again, this is MY definition and does not apply to anyone else. I think most atheists have a good idea of what spirituality means without needing explanations from clergies.

[ June 23, 2002: Message edited by: philechat ]

06-23-2002, 02:26 PM	#20
philechat Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Mind of the Other Posts: 886	On spirituality: People often confuse the meaning of spirituality. I have yet to hear anyone who could come up with a satisfying definition about it. What does "the attachment to the Spirit" mean? Why do people who do not believe in supernaturalism "but a piece of dirt"? I don't really follow the logic over here. Here is a definition of spirituality without theological baggages, since people of different religions seem to think their religion is the best source (or worse, ONLY source) to transcendence, which mean nothing to me because I do not subscribe to the theology of any religion. Spirituality: The concern with matters that are not directly related to subsistence or social gains. The thoughts about concepts, patterns, and meanings behind particular occurances. The preference of big-picture oriented, life-affirming, creative endeavors. Ability to see experience from a variety of perspectives. Again, this is MY definition and does not apply to anyone else. I think most atheists have a good idea of what spirituality means without needing explanations from clergies. [ June 23, 2002: Message edited by: philechat ]</p>

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06-23-2002, 10:09 AM	#12
Eldy Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Evergreen State Posts: 20	[QUOTE]Originally posted by Eldy: [QB]How about this topic?: Resolved, that all human beings ARE spiritual beings, whether believer or unbeliever, because they demonstrate spiritual characteristics that are not found among the other animal or the vegetable kindgoms. Supporting commentary in the oritinal post. 4. Human beings can understand the concept of truth. They know there are true and untrue facts. Someone asked about "concept of the truth" in contrast to "truth" itself. Example for illustration: 1 plus 1 equals 2. This is a fact and it is true. "All cows eat grass." True. "All cows eat grass only." False. They might eat leaves and heads of lettuce. Conceptually, we understand that some things are true and some things are false. We can all discuss what is true, and what is false, and agree or disagree greatly, but I believe it may be as given that we know that some things are true and some things are false. I do not believe that any animals can get this far. The space between my ability to recognize truth in comparison to that of even the most intelligent horse or ape is chasmic and cosmic. All evidence indicates that something cannot come from nothing. We cannot cite in our experience even one case of where intelligence came from non-intelligence, nor life from non-life, nor love from non-love. There is not one instance of where self-awareness came from non-awareness. Not one. The count among human being right now is 6 billion to zero on self-awareness coming from non-awareness. Atheists can ignore this point, and calmly live out their life as a piece of clay (no one can do this, can he?), or they can recognize that failing to apprehend the need for a "first cause," is a great leap of faith. In other words, it takes a lot of faith to accept a world in which they exist, and not have some logical and faithful explanation for such cause. Please don't ask me to believe that something can come from nothing, even once. And I am just as helpless in explaining God as the "first cause." But I admit that I act on faith.

06-23-2002, 10:43 AM	#15
Synaesthesia Guest Posts: n/a	The argument seems to be based upon the tacit equivocation of spirituality in the spooky, superstitious sense with spirituality in the humanistic sense.

06-23-2002, 11:14 AM	#16
Ojuice5001 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: A city in Florida that I love Posts: 3,416	I notice a lot of people are refuting this argument by saying that animals exhibit the traits of Eldy's list. That is not a good way to disprove supernaturalism, people! These things are still spiritual characteristics, and if warm-blooded animals exhibit them too, the proper conclusion is not naturalism, but the extension of the term "spiritual" to include warm-blooded animals. If you stepped away from the two-sided debate between Christianity and materialism, and towards an appreciation of pagan supernaturalism, you would see that both humans and warm-blooded animals have souls.

06-23-2002, 12:07 PM	#17
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	Like so many of the terms we use to talk about religion, we simply have no agreed-upon definition of what 'spiritual' means. I understand that Eldy is attempting to define it, but I have to point out that all the points he makes seem to spring from completely material causes- which is not to say that spirituality and materiality are necessarily mutually self-exclusive. However, most of the definitions which are offered to us, by Christians especially, claim to transcend the material. Eldy, do you claim that there is some aspect of spirituality which is 'above' or 'beyond' the world of seas and cities, math and matter?

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