Peter Kirby

I will quote from a previous post on the purpose of this Bible study: "The purpose of this study, as I conceive it, is a better understanding of the message and method of the authors involved. Insights are welcome from both believers and skeptics. We should try to understand what the author says, and we should welcome contributions from people who have different perspectives than our own. A person can have the viewpoint that the work is inspired; however, the person should post with the realization that others will not share that assumption. In the other direction, a person can have the viewpiont that the work is entirely fictitious, but others will not be compelled to adopt this viewpoint without argument. I have no illusions that there is an objective point of view from which the interpretation of John can be tackled, so I suggest that we be explicit about the assumptions that are behind our readings."

There are no requirements for background knowledge to post. You do not have to come with any special background or degree of study in order to reply; it is enough to read the chapter of John, which can be easily done in a few minutes. Do not worry about 'proving' your responses; I am interested in soliciting opinions, not just rigidly determined facts. Do not worry about whether someone else may have had the thought before; I don't see the purpose of this Bible study as the breaking of new ground so much as a learning process. I and others are interested in hearing about your thoughts even if you have never so much as glanced at the Gospel of John before. I am not looking for anything stunning, nor do I demand evidence to back every statement. I am looking for candid, casual comments. You certainly do not have to respond to every single question. Just pick the ones that trigger pleasing neuron activity in your brain. So, please: partake, post, participate, and the like!

Here is the third chapter of John in Darby's translation.

John 3
1 But there was a man from among the Pharisees, his name Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews;
2 he came to him by night, and said to him, Rabbi, we know that thou art come a teacher from God, for none can do these signs that thou doest unless God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said to him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except any one be born anew he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus says to him, How can a man be born being old? can he enter a second time into the womb of his mother and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except any one be born of water and of Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not wonder that I said to thee, It is needful that *ye* should be born anew.
8 The wind blows where it will, and thou hearest its voice, but knowest not whence it comes and where it goes: thus is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said to him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said to him, Thou art the teacher of Israel and knowest not these things!
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that which we know, and we bear witness of that which we have seen, and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have said the earthly things to you, and ye believe not, how, if I say the heavenly things to you, will ye believe?
13 And no one has gone up into heaven, save he who came down out of heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, thus must the Son of man be lifted up,
15 that every one who believes on him may [not perish, but] have life eternal.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal.
17 For God has not sent his Son into the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him.
18 He that believes on him is not judged: but he that believes not has been already judged, because he has not believed on the name of the only-begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the judgment, that light is come into the world, and men have loved darkness rather than light; for their works were evil.
20 For every one that does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light that his works may not be shewn as they are;
21 but he that practises the truth comes to the light, that his works may be manifested that they have been wrought in God.
22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he abode with them and baptised.
23 And John also was baptising in Aenon, near Salim, because there was a great deal of water there; and they came to [him] and were baptised:
24 for John was not yet cast into prison.
25 There was therefore a reasoning of the disciples of John with a Jew about purification.
26 And they came to John and said to him, Rabbi, he who was with thee beyond the Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, he baptises, and all come to him.
27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing unless it be given him out of heaven.
28 Ye yourselves bear me witness that I said, I am not the Christ, but, that I am sent before him.
29 He that has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices in heart because of the voice of the bridegroom: this my joy then is fulfilled.
30 He must increase, but I must decrease.
31 He who comes from above is above all. He who has his origin in the earth is of the earth, and speaks [as] of the earth. He who comes out of heaven is above all,
32 [and] what he has seen and has heard, this he testifies; and no one receives his testimony.
33 He that has received his testimony has set to his seal that God is true;
34 for he whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives not the Spirit by measure.
35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things [to be] in his hand.
36 He that believes on the Son has life eternal, and he that is not subject to the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him.

Here you can see several versions in a synopsis, including the Greek.

<a href="http://www.greeknewtestament.com/B43C003.htm" target="_blank">John 3 (HTML Bible)</a>

Now I will pose some questions. Later I will quote some scholars.

1. Why is it said that Nicodemus approached Jesus at night?

2. What is the significance of Nicodemus being described as a Pharisee and councillor?

3. Does Nicodemus have faith? If so, describe the faith of Nicodemus.

4. What double meanings are present in the discussion between Jesus and Nicodemus?

5. What does it mean to be "born of water and of Spirit" in verse 5?

6. What are the "earthly things" mentioned in verse 12? What are the "heavenly things"?

7. Jesus says in verse 13, "And no one has gone up into heaven." What about, for example, Elijah (2 Kings 2:1-15)?

8. Is Jesus speaking in verses 14 through 21?

9. To what does the "serpent in the wilderness" of verse 14 refer? What is the intent of the "lifted up" comparison?

10. The verse "John 3:16" is often displayed on signs at sports events and in other locations. Why do you suppose that this verse is so popular?

11. Verse 18 says, "Whoever does not believe has been judged already." Why is it written this way instead of "will be judged"?

12. In verse 20, is there an implication that people do not believe in Christ because they prefer to live in sin? What are your thoughts on the idea expressed in this verse?

13. What is the dispute over purification mentioned in verse 25? What is the relevance of this dispute to the narrative?

14. Verse 24 states that John the Baptist was "not yet cast into prison," but such imprisonment is not mentioned in the rest of the Gospel of John. So why is this mentioned here?

15. In verse 26, followers of John the Baptist who had heard John the Baptist witness to Jesus Christ complain that Jesus is attracting followers, even though John had stated clearly that Jesus is the Lamb of God. What is the explanation of this?

16. Verse 30 has the Baptist saying, "He must increase, but I must decrease." What does this mean? What is the connection between the idea that Jesus increases and the idea that John decreases? Why is John the Baptist portrayed the way that he is in the fourth gospel?

17. Who is speaking in verses 31-36: the Baptist, Jesus, the Evangelist? Or is it an interpolation?

18. Does the fourth gospel say that all those who do not believe on Jesus, the Son, are going to suffer "the wrath of God"?

19. Do you like this format better? Do you have any suggestions for improvement?

I look forward to reading your response!

best,
Peter Kirby

Clarice O'C

Assuming that Jesus really is the "light," then yes, that's the implication. But I'll wager that the majority of non-believers including folks of other religions aren't exactly in the dark. And we'll never forget the old Jim Jones example of one who came to the light. I've always wondered how xians explain that.

Best,
Clarice

Peter Kirby

Clarice writes: Assuming that Jesus really is the "light," then yes, that's the implication.

John 1:4, John 1:5, John 1:7, John 1:8, John 1:9, John 3:19, John 3:20, John 3:21, John 5:35, John 8:12, John 9:5, John 11:9, John 11:10, John 12:35, John 12:36, John 12:46 contain references to 'light'. Note "I am the light of the world" found in 8:12 and 9:5.

Clarice writes: But I'll wager that the majority of non-believers including folks of other religions aren't exactly in the dark.

Ya, me too. If this verse is interpreted as saying that all those who do not believe in Christ are immoral, then the verse so interpreted would seem to be false.

Clarice writes: And we'll never forget the old Jim Jones example of one who came to the light. I've always wondered how xians explain that.

I am sure that they dismiss the People's Temple as a "cult" and say that Jim Jones was not a True Christian (tm).

Do you have any thoughts on the other questions? I look forward to more replies from you or from anyone else.

best,
Peter Kirby

Clarice O'C

Peter wrote:

"I am sure that they dismiss the People's Temple as a "cult" and say that Jim Jones was not a True Christian (tm)."

Ah, but cult or not he *believed* and that's John's criteria as in:

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal.
17 For God has not sent his Son into the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him.
18 He that believes on him is not judged: but he that believes not has been already judged, because he has not believed on the name of the only-begotten Son of God.

Gotta go to work.

See ya,
Clarice

Toto

Hi Peter, I think you are on summer vacation and I am not. &lt;sigh&gt;

I picked up a copy of Hyam Maccoby's The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity which was discussed on another thread here. His thesis is that the portrait of Jesus in the synoptics (not necessarily in gJohn) is the portrait of a true Pharisee, and the portrayal of the Pharisees is a bad caricature. (He goes on to argue that Paul was not a Pharisee.)

So here we have Nicodemus, a Pharisee and a ruler, coming to Jesus at night (because he is doing this sub rosa, presumably, or is there some hint of a night time ceremony a la secret Mark?), and having Jesus befuddle him with some gnostic talk about the light and being born again, which he does not seem to understand very well. Nicodemus only knows that Jesus gives "signs" that he is from God, but knows nothing else.

(When I first read the Bible as a child, I found a lot that I did not understand, and my mind just stopped. I didn't have the courage to say, this doesn't make sense. But now I can say that it just doesn't make a lot of sense.)

You ask if verses 14-21 were spoken by Jesus, presumably because he speaks of the "son" of God in the third person, without claiming to be that person. I think that there was some doctrine of the "son" as an intermediary between God and the world, although I don't recall exactly where I read this. Certainly as the text reads, there is no one else who could have said them.

Jesus then gets up and starts baptizing in competition with John the Baptist.

I wondered why these two disjointed episodes were in the same chapter, but it becomes clear - Jesus is shown lecturing to a prominent Pharisee, a ruler, and telling him that he doesn't understand anything. Then Jesus moves on to JtB, and John says that he must decrease while Jesus increases. This is obvious fiction, designed to establish Jesus' status in regard to two signficant groups at the time, the Pharisees and the followers of John the Baptist.

You ask, "In verse 26, followers of John the Baptist who had heard John the Baptist witness to Jesus Christ complain that Jesus is attracting followers, even though John had stated clearly that Jesus is the Lamb of God. What is the explanation of this?"

My explanation would be that John never said anything complimentary about Jesus, and it was a creation of the author of John, a literary device to build up Jesus.

There may be some astrological symbolism here too, but that's about all I have time for.

Gringo

When God had sent a plague of venomous serpents upon the Israelites for their waywardness, Moses interceded in prayer form them and God had Moses lift up an image of a serpent, so that those bitten may look up at the serpent and live. Instead of having faith in looking at an image of a lifted serpent to save you mortal life, looking upon Christ's crucifiction in faith leads to eternal life.

Vorkosigan

Glad to see many new faces in this thread..

I've taken the liberty of removing 14-21 and 31+ and putting them together. Frankly, I thought it made more sense to put in 13 as well. It seems to be some kind of philosophical discourse/hymn. Once someone alerts you to it, it really sticks out.

• 13 And no one has gone up into heaven, save he who came down out of heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven.
  14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, thus must the Son of man be lifted up,
  15 that every one who believes on him may [not perish, but] have life eternal.
  16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal.
  17 For God has not sent his Son into the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him.
  18 He that believes on him is not judged: but he that believes not has been already judged, because he has not believed on the name of the only-begotten Son of God.
  19 And this is the judgment, that light is come into the world, and men have loved darkness rather than light; for their works were evil.
  20 For every one that does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light that his works may not be shewn as they are;
  21 but he that practises the truth comes to the light, that his works may be manifested that they have been wrought in God.
  31 He who comes from above is above all. He who has his origin in the earth is of the earth, and speaks [as] of the earth. He who comes out of heaven is above all,
  32 [and] what he has seen and has heard, this he testifies; and no one receives his testimony.
  33 He that has received his testimony has set to his seal that God is true;
  34 for he whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives not the Spirit by measure.
  35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things [to be] in his hand.
  36 He that believes on the Son has life eternal, and he that is not subject to the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides u

This makes a nice seam:

• 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that which we know, and we bear witness of that which we have seen, and ye receive not our witness.
  12 If I have said the earthly things to you, and ye believe not, how, if I say the heavenly things to you, will ye believe?
  22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he abode with them and baptised.
  23 And John also was baptising in Aenon, near Salim, because there was a great deal of water there; and they came to [him] and were baptised:
  24 for John was not yet cast into prison.

It seems that this sequence in John 3 is designed once again to denigrate that thorn in the side, John the Baptist, whose pesky followers were clearly a pain to the writer of the 4th gospel.

It also contains a reference to the Wedding at Cana with the "Bridegroom" language. Is the water into wine miracle an anti-JtB bit as well, with "water" suggesting baptism, and old/new wine being JtB and Jesus, respectively?

Vorkosigan

[ August 02, 2002: Message edited by: Vorkosigan ]</p>

Peter Kirby

Toto writes: I picked up a copy of Hyam Maccoby's The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity which was discussed on another thread here. His thesis is that the portrait of Jesus in the synoptics (not necessarily in gJohn) is the portrait of a true Pharisee, and the portrayal of the Pharisees is a bad caricature.

Maccoby has a book coming out titled Jesus the Pharisee.

Toto writes: So here we have Nicodemus, a Pharisee and a ruler, coming to Jesus at night (because he is doing this sub rosa, presumably, or is there some hint of a night time ceremony a la secret Mark?), and having Jesus befuddle him with some gnostic talk about the light and being born again, which he does not seem to understand very well. Nicodemus only knows that Jesus gives "signs" that he is from God, but knows nothing else.

The idea that there was a hint of a night time ceremony, as found in the fragment from Clement discovered by Morton Smith, is an interesting one, as in both cases the night time meeting has to do with baptism.

Toto writes: (When I first read the Bible as a child, I found a lot that I did not understand, and my mind just stopped. I didn't have the courage to say, this doesn't make sense. But now I can say that it just doesn't make a lot of sense.)

A lot of it can make sense in a literary or historical critical way, viewed not as the (literal) truth but as the ideas of ancient mystics.

Toto writes: You ask if verses 14-21 were spoken by Jesus, presumably because he speaks of the "son" of God in the third person, without claiming to be that person. I think that there was some doctrine of the "son" as an intermediary between God and the world, although I don't recall exactly where I read this. Certainly as the text reads, there is no one else who could have said them.

Some of the scholars I will quote have things to say about whether Jesus was speaking here.

Toto writes: I wondered why these two disjointed episodes were in the same chapter, but it becomes clear - Jesus is shown lecturing to a prominent Pharisee, a ruler, and telling him that he doesn't understand anything. Then Jesus moves on to JtB, and John says that he must decrease while Jesus increases. This is obvious fiction, designed to establish Jesus' status in regard to two signficant groups at the time, the Pharisees and the followers of John the Baptist.

We have to be careful about making observations that depend on the chapter structure decided upon by monks in the middle ages.

We can extend your idea to the incident concerning the Temple: thus, in this section, there are three episodes that show Jesus to be superiour to the Jews, specifically concerning the Temple priests, the Pharisees, and followers of John the Baptist.

Toto writes: My explanation would be that John never said anything complimentary about Jesus, and it was a creation of the author of John, a literary device to build up Jesus.

Do you think that the author noticed this literary tension in his story, i.e., that disciples of John the Baptist who heard the witness to Christ were complaining about the people going to Jesus?

best,
Peter Kirby

Peter Kirby

Gringo writes: When God had sent a plague of venomous serpents upon the Israelites for their waywardness, Moses interceded in prayer form them and God had Moses lift up an image of a serpent, so that those bitten may look up at the serpent and live. Instead of having faith in looking at an image of a lifted serpent to save you mortal life, looking upon Christ's crucifiction in faith leads to eternal life.

Could this mean that, in the view of John, the resurrection of Jesus was not necessary for people to enter eternal life?

Do you have comments on the other questions?

best,
Peter Kirby

Peter Kirby

Vorkosigan writes: I've taken the liberty of removing 14-21 and 31+ and putting them together. Frankly, I thought it made more sense to put in 13 as well. It seems to be some kind of philosophical discourse/hymn. Once someone alerts you to it, it really sticks out.

What do you think of Bultmann's idea that there was a discourse source that consisted completely of this kind of writing?

Myself, I don't see any greater connection between these two discourses and any other two discourses found in the fourth gospel.

Vorkosigan writes: It seems that this sequence in John 3 is designed once again to denigrate that thorn in the side, John the Baptist, whose pesky followers were clearly a pain to the writer of the 4th gospel.

This is the last appearance of John the Baptist in the fourth gospel. I am not sure that the evanglist aimed to denigrate John so much as Christianize him.

Vorkosigan writes: It also contains a reference to the Wedding at Cana with the "Bridegroom" language. Is the water into wine miracle an anti-JtB bit as well, with "water" suggesting baptism, and old/new wine being JtB and Jesus, respectively?

The word for "purification" appears only two times in the Gospel of John (katharismon in 2:6, katharismou in 3:25). I wonder if this is a clue that we are supposed to make a connection.

best,
Peter Kirby