sidewinder

I recently asked a Christian why an atheist would be denied entrance into Heaven if they have basically lived a decent life. I mentioned the fact that many atheists I know live very decent lives. Many atheists are good people. I asked him how his god could reject such people simply because they didn't believe in a book full of errors and contradictions. It seems that the Christian God is more interested in belief in a set of doctrines than in humans living a decent life.

I know one response to this is that humans can't live a decent life without the Christian God but there is evidence against this claim all over the world. I mentioned to him the fact that in many cases atheists seem to live more decently than religious believers. In fact, it seems to me that the Christian religion gives people permission to slack when it comes to morals. They believe they are filled with sin and are worthless so it's no wonder they "sin" so often. Yet, they have a get-out-of-sin free card. Just say a quick prayer for forgiveness and your sin is forgotten. In fact, Christians seem to believe that it is more important to have the forgiveness of their god than it is to have the forgiveness of those they have hurt in some way.

I know there are assumptions here (existence of Christian God, Heaven) but I was trying to make a point with him. Christians claim that being "good" is important in their god determining your eternal fate. So why wouldn't a "good" atheist make it into Heaven? Why is it important to believe in a virgin conception or a resurrection or that a donkey spoke or that the earth is flat (which is in the Bible), etc? Indeed, why is it important to believe in any god at all?

I'm With Stupid

It's a package deal, you can't get the salvation with submitting to the identity eraser and spewing forth the bullshit.

It's about control, not "god".

Eudaimonist

Some Christians will claim that belief alone is necessary to get into Heaven, and that one can't "earn" one's way into Heaven with good deeds, since none of us can be as perfect as God. I personally suspect this doctrine arose to relieve Catholic worry about whether one would be "good enough" to get into Heaven, and perhaps also to provide greater incentive to Christians to stay in the faith.

[ February 14, 2002: Message edited by: Eudaimonia ]</p>

b@rtleby

sidewinder,
"So why wouldn't a "good" atheist make it into Heaven?"
the simple answer to this question is the one you've already ventured that you can't be good without god. as jesus said "no one is good but god alone". as such there are no 'good' athiests and no people without god who are 'good' because if there is a god, and only that god is 'good', and god is the sole arbiter of what is 'good' then if he says that only christians can be 'good' then only christians can be 'good' and so there is, by definition, no chance of a 'good' person going to hell.

as for believing in god, this is only important because god wants us to worship him and this is difficult without prior belief.

as for the flat earth, the bible clearly doesn't say this because the bible is the inerrant word of god and as such must be without error. any interpretation which makes it seem that the earth is flat must be a false interpretation.

there's something almost perversely persuasive about the bare faced blatancy of defining everything that threatens to disagree with you into a mindless tautology, but obviously not persuasive enough to sacrifice your mind for...
hope this helps
bb

babelfish

It's the sequence of events that causes your argument to fail with Christians. They DO believe in being "good." But they do not think that just being "good" will bring about their salvation. Their belief is they are born again, therefore they believe in Jesus-as-their-personal-savior-and-the-only-way-to-salvation, therefore they will naturally act "good."

Does it actually work out this way? You tell me....

sidewinder

Jesus answered that question when a man called him good. If anything, Jesus was pointing to the fact that no man (including himself) was good, only the God of Israel.

How can you claim that people can't be good without the Christian God when there are good people all over the Earth who do not believe in the Christian God? If you believe that all people are bad on what do you base this belief? I know many people who are kind, caring, loving, decent people and they are not believers. You would call claim that these people are not good?

You claim that your god is good. On what do you base this belief? Further, how do you know that your view of god is correct as opposed to say, the Jewish or Muslim view of God?

Why does your god want to be worshipped? On what do you base this belief? Allegedly he is perfect in every conceivable way so why would he need humans to worship him (or her or it?)

It has been recognized for a long time now by many Biblical scholars that the ancient Hebrew writers believed the Earth was flat. They also believed the sky was a dome and that their god lived behind the dome. Here's a link to a good article. <a href="http://infoweb.magi.com/~godfree/flaterth.html" target="_blank">http://infoweb.magi.com/~godfree/flaterth.html</a>

I have to admit that I don't understand this statement.

I'm With Stupid

Umm, is there an echo in here?

Sounds like you just repeated my earlier statement, only using more words, and a good helping of cult nonsense.

ImGod

The eternal fate of atheist is no different than anybody else. We end up passing on genes in the evolutionary process and knowledge to the younger ones.

Organized religion uses the afterlife as a carrot or stick (depending on your point of view) to provide the revenue necessary to exist, or to provide the power base for the leaders.

Come back regularly to be cleansed and stop by the offering plate on the way out. My old church just sent out information on their latest capital campaign for the new $40 million sanctuary they are planning. The minister says it's all according to god’s plan, yeah right.

Assuming there is some type of afterlife, does this minister really have a better chance of getting into the good side of it than someone who raised no money, didn't "believe", but truly cared for his fellow man?

Jack the Bodiless

I think b@rtleby was being sarcastic, guys...

b@rtleby

jack,
thank you...


sidewinder,
sorry for being unclear - my final statement was meant to imply that i was not a christian though i sometimes admire the sheer brazeness with which some employ circular reasoning to defend their contradictory beliefs...
hope this clears it up

bb