Bobzammel

Christians state that Jesus was God made into human form and other elements. However in the Old Testament we see a number of time God appears to manifest himself physically in Genesis.


-Perhaps most important is Jacob wrestling with God. Now, often it is stated that this was just an angel, but the text makes no such mention, and then if it was an angel it would not make sense--He is named Israel, which means "Wrestles with God" and also builds an altar because he has "Seen God, and lived". Implying that his opponent was God.

-There's also a mention of Abraham in Genesis 18. In the passage it certainly reads like Abraham is having a meal with God and two angels, who he later sends down to Sodom.

-There are also a number of instances in the penteauch where God clearly has some physical form. In one instance, he descends from a cloud and loungues outside the tent of meeting while cursing Moses's siblings for criticizing Moses.

-The concept of God with physical form--even appearing in a weak human form as in the context of the first two passages--is found throughout the OT. Interestingly in Jewish and Christian commentaries, as stated, they often try to state these are angels, but from the text this is really not stated and it seems mainly a clumsy attempt to reconcile this with "No one has seen God". The writer of Hebrews even goes so far to say that the Law was in fact not dictated to Moses by God, but by a group of angels relaying commands(Once again, not in the text).

anime

Then I suppose it becomes important to be able to distinguish between "physical" and "flesh". For all that is flesh is physical, but not all that is physical is flesh.

A rock is physical. But is it flesh?

Certainly it might be argued that elements are common to both. But in its strictest sense, flesh should not be confused with rock, or any other physical entity that exists otherwise.

Volker.Doormann

In every human being and in every creature is a spiritual soul. Because this spiritual soul has no physical properties, it hardly can be manifest physically. The range of physics is limited to the slave attributes of energy and mass. There is no freedom in this physics.

What is a human being without a spiritual soul? What is the difference between a living human being and a death human being? Physically? (!). Who knows?



This is a parable, that describes the wrestling of each human being with the attributes of truth and love ('god') against that comfortable being as an intelligent physical being without any spiritual problems. The spiritual questions about the 'from' and 'To' before birth and after death are still hidden behind busy thinking.

Who is him, who ask questions?

An atom with a structure of carbon? A cluster of molecules in the brain? Is him, who asks an existing physical 'him'?

I think there is no true way to mix up physical properties with spiritual properties. But I think there is a way to understand the symbols from the OT as spiritual principles beside xtianity and beside physical nonsense claimed by religions.

Volker

malookiemaloo

Pre-incarnate appearances of Christ are indeed a mystery.

The 'Son of the Gods' in the fiery furnace was, I think, one too.

Volker.Doormann

As long as one does not solve two into one plus one two will be for ever a mystery. As long as one does not distinguish physical processes from spiritual knowledge, religion will be a mystery for ever. I think, that a mystery must be solved into knowledge (Gnosis). In the same sense one can read the intro of the Gospel of Thomas: "These are the secret sayings which the living Jesus spoke and which Didymos Judas Thomas wrote down. And he said, "Whoever finds the interpretation of these sayings will not experience death." Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All." Spiritual 'things' have no relation to time or locations, and because of that, spiritual 'things' can't die. Only physical 'things' integrated as biological life must die. Every appearance is a physical process and every cognition in that, what is, has no physical properties. What are the physical properties of the soul? crystalline? solid? Fluid? Our body carrying Atoms and water from the supermarket. But this atoms of the body are interchanged with time. The body is never a indivisible one. The body is not the soul. One can recognize, that every soul, who lives in a creature, has only spiritual properties and no physical properties. That what is eternal and immortal is the soul, as it is written by Thomas. Who needs unsolved mysteries?

Volker

Old Man

I disagree. You cannot spirit away history as parable without evidence, and you have cited none.

Further, there does not seem to be any objection to translating 'elohiym as angel, since the word is ambiguous and its meaning is contextual.

Volker.Doormann

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Religion is the inner spiritual way to the home of soul. History is connected to time and locations and time and locations are connected to physical processes. Physical processes have in no way a connection to religion.

It was spoken about 'He, who wrestle with god'. This is a well known translation of the Hebrew name Isra'EL . El or God has weather a physical evidence nor a historical evidence. It's evidence can only be recognized, but not shown on limited locations and historical times. This is also teached p.e. by Jesus several times in the Gospels.


AFAIR I haven't spoken about 'elohiym as angles'.

Volker

Old Man

The soul lives in the body which is physical. The actions of the body can cause the soul to live or die. Your generalizations are unsupported by any biblical doctrine.

Volker.Doormann

Originally posted by Old Man A physical action can cause physical effects only. A physical effect never can murder spiritual ‘things’ like logic, math or a soul. Spiritual ‘things’ are acausal, alocal and timeless. A physical body is a dynamic (timedepending) composition of atoms. These atoms are coming and going. If one argues, that a soul has energetic physical properties, simply this could be measured in cgs units (cm gram seconds). But I never have heard of such prove. By Thomas, Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is within you and it is outside you.” This shows, that that, what Jesus was talking about has no connection to something, that can physically be located. And Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit, that is a marvel, but if spirit came into being because of the body, that is a marvel of marvels. Yet I marvel at how this great wealth has come to dwell in this poverty." Or: Jesus said, "Whoever has come to know the world has discovered the body, and whoever has discovered the body, of that one the world is not worthy." Spiritual ‘things’ are beyond secular or physical things. Jesus said, "Damn the flesh that depends on the soul. Damn the soul that depends on the flesh."

Maybe right, but a lot of that Sayings by Thomas can be found also in the gospels of the Christian bible. And in John 18:36: Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world”.

Volker

Old Man

Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith: for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin.

There is a link between the physical and the spiritual, but the link is faith or belief. As long as a person acts from faith, his actions are in harmony with the soul. If a person does not act from faith, his actions lead to the death of the soul.