Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Grumpy · 06-26-2002, 04:59 PM

Everybody is positively going ape today. I literally have not seen this kind of reaction since September 11th. (Granted, it's not wall-to-wall coverage -- but an insta-resolution in Congress pretty well qualifies as "ape.")

Quote:

Originally posted by ashibaka:
Everyone's saying this, but how the heck can they reverse it?

Simple. Amend the Constitution. Where it says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion and prohibiting the free exercise thereof," substitute "shall occaisionally establish religion, even if it prohibits the free exercise thereof."

Or maybe they'll just abolish Article III - the Judiciary.

Lone Wolf · 06-26-2002, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LadyShea:
Why do they insist on spinning and twisting it dammit

WWJD?

The Dionysian · 06-26-2002, 05:03 PM

I've decided this thing is way overblown. All it means is teachers in public schools in that area can't lead the pledge and include the words "under god". There's nothing stopping kids from saying it so who honestly cares about this anymore?

Anunnaki · 06-26-2002, 05:04 PM

Newdow is gonna be on Hannity and Colmes in a couple minutes.

Philosoft · 06-26-2002, 05:07 PM

*sigh*

Newt the larger just managed to blabber ten minutes to sycophant Hannity about the court's decision and make not one mention of the only real issue that is now being summarily ignored: constitutionality. Has anyone seen a politico make an argument that is not of the form, "these judges are out of touch with the majority"?

Atheist121 · 06-26-2002, 05:09 PM

In discussing this with people, so far trying to compare it with "under Jesus" or "under Satan" has been unsuccessful. They claim that these figures are specific to one religion, while "God" is generic (eventhough it is specific to monotheism, and excludes atheism, deism, polytheism, etc.). The best I've been able to come up with has been, "How would you feel if they were saying, 'One Nation, with no God,' or 'One Nation, under no God'?" These seem to be directly parallel to what is currently being said.

ashibaka · 06-26-2002, 05:11 PM

Summary from Other Forums

For those of you who collect fallacies, here's a beautiful post from the Fark flamewar:

Quote:

This is not a religious issue.

This is some Left Wing Communist Judge that is trying to make a name for itself (I know what pronoun I used. No correction needed.)

I'll be this shithead is sitting back listening to NPR, eating some shit whose name we can't pronounce, and whose price we can't afford, and patting itself on the back, for sticking it to the whole country. It probably has a big kool-aid smug smirk on its' face that is just waiting to be smacked off by a person who actually fought for this shithead's ability to go to law school.

Meanwhile people are overseas dying and the people whose freedom they are protecting cannot even show their alligiance to the country they live in. What a bunch of shit.

I do not get mad very often, but this is totally career and politically motivated, it has nothing to do with what anybody thinks is right. If people are going to be bitches about this (and believe me you are all bitches). Then take "Under God" out and force every farking American to say it daily under penalty of treason. Stupid fucks.

On another note...Man oh Man you anti-religious guys are harsh. Yet another group that thinks that they, being one speck of fly shit in this big universe, has the whole thing figured out. Whether you believe in any religion or not, the fact remains, people have a right to be religious or not in anyway they see fit, free from tyranny. Like it or not that is one of the reasons this country was started. FREEDOM OF RELIGION. Dont' spew your hate on anyone because of their religious beliefs, be they Jew , Muslim, Buddist, Hindu, Jainist, Moonie, Mormon, or your hated Christians. The fact is people in all of those religions have something called faith. It's the thing that makes them believe what they believe. The fact is you people are so caught up in your counterculture bullshit that most of America, regardless of religion, finds perverse or just downright geeky and stupid. The though of religion to some is a very freeing thought that gives you a center to your life, a compass if you will. All you short-minded pricks see is a world of people that you claim to be more intelligent than, and that you consider yourslef to be on a higher plane than. You then use this inflated Simpson's Comic Book guy ego, and justify your wretched little existance of being a "leet haxor" or a person who frequents places where you have to pay to see a female naked. How fucking sad is that. Maybe if you were relly intelligent you wouldn't be wasting all of your time on this stupid ass website.

This one confuses me:

Quote:

This is absofarkinglutely retarded. I'm sure it's been said in 100 posts already, but all our money has "In God We Trust". In every U.S. Court of Law, you swear to tell "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God." Additionally, the NATIONAL ANTHEM (final verse) contains these lines:

"Blest with vict'ry and peace, may the heav'n-rescued land
Praise the Pow'r that hath made and preserv'd us as a nation!
Then conquer we must, when our cause is just,
And this be our motto: 'In God is our trust'"

If the national anthem gets declared unconstitutional as well, I'm not even kidding: the terrorists HAVE already won. Final score 911 - 0, game over.

Whose national anthem is that? Doesn't sound like the Star-Spangled Banner to me.
[edit: Oh, OK, it's the final verse.]

From Yahoo: <a href="http://news.messages.yahoo.com/bbs?action=m&board=37138445&tid=appledgeofallegian ce&sid=37138445&mid=4488" target="_blank">Jesus loves you!</a>

I've seen a lot of slippery slopes revolving around this ruling, and this one's the best:

Quote:

Next: No crosses to be worn visibly in public. Public only allowed to say the word "God" while in their own church. In other news, China joins NATO.

China joins NATO! I'm quaking in my seat!

[ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: ashibaka ]

uhcord · 06-26-2002, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Just out of sheer curiousity to see if they truly do get a feeling of discrimination even though they aren't forced to say it the pledge.

Having the whole classroom standing up around you, saying the pledge, does make you feel alienated. Just because my teacher can not force me doesn't mean I don't get a weird look or a "show respect for your country" speech every so often.

I really do not see how people can not get it through their thick skulls that putting in "under God" in the pledge is endorsement of monotheism. It not only alienates nonreligious, but also the polytheists! Grrrr

[ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: vonmeth ]

Bill Snedden · 06-26-2002, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ashibaka:
Whose national anthem is that? Doesn't sound like the Star-Spangled Banner to me.

It's almost never sung (in fact, I've never heard it sung), but that is actually the fourth verse to the SSB.

Regards,

Bill Snedden

Bill Snedden · 06-26-2002, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ashibaka:
Everyone's saying this, but how the heck can they reverse it? The logic of the turnover is totally valid. To overturn the appeals court's ruling, they'd have to submit a ruling with just one clause, "We're right and you're wrong", without further explanation. Or something like that.

They will most likely resort to the same de minimis argument that was used to justify continuing the Congressional Chaplaincy and opening Congress and sessions of the SCOTUS with a prayer.

It's a flawed argument, though, and seeing them necessarily resort to it in order to preserve special rights for believers will only serve to highlight the moral bankruptcy of those who would suppress constitutionally guaranteed rights in order to serve special interests.

Regards,

Bill Snedden

[ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: Bill Snedden ]

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06-26-2002, 05:03 PM	#233
The Dionysian Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: who knows Posts: 154	I've decided this thing is way overblown. All it means is teachers in public schools in that area can't lead the pledge and include the words "under god". There's nothing stopping kids from saying it so who honestly cares about this anymore?

06-26-2002, 05:04 PM	#234
Anunnaki Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: I`ve left and gone away Posts: 699	Newdow is gonna be on Hannity and Colmes in a couple minutes.

06-26-2002, 05:07 PM	#235
Philosoft Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Southeast of disorder Posts: 6,829	sigh Newt the larger just managed to blabber ten minutes to sycophant Hannity about the court's decision and make not one mention of the only real issue that is now being summarily ignored: constitutionality. Has anyone seen a politico make an argument that is not of the form, "these judges are out of touch with the majority"?

06-26-2002, 05:09 PM	#236
Atheist121 Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 292	In discussing this with people, so far trying to compare it with "under Jesus" or "under Satan" has been unsuccessful. They claim that these figures are specific to one religion, while "God" is generic (eventhough it is specific to monotheism, and excludes atheism, deism, polytheism, etc.). The best I've been able to come up with has been, "How would you feel if they were saying, 'One Nation, with no God,' or 'One Nation, under no God'?" These seem to be directly parallel to what is currently being said.

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