Feather

I was driving to school this morning and listening to the local talk radio station when the host brought up an interesting glurge.

Apparently some local high school teacher celebrated Darwin's birthyday in class by baking a cake. She also wore a shirt with the EvolveFish symbol on it. Well, some local parents became concerned and, well, offended that she would do such a thing; they claim the teacher was deliberately trying to stir things up, bashing Xtianity, etc.

I don't know if the story is true or not, because the subject was just brought up this morning and no local news organisation has grabbed it yet to my knowledge.

Regardless, I was curious what your thoughts on the matter were.

The talk show hosts claims that wearing such a symbol indicates a knowing and deliberate assault on a religion (Xtianity). I understand the point, but I believe only the fringe fundies would agree with it. But I am admittedly biased, being an atheist and a supporter of scientific endeavours in general.

So how would y'all interpret such a symbol? Is it no different than wearing the Xtian Fish symbol, or any other religious accoutrements? Keep in mind this is a high school teacher, so the act of a chilid wearing such devices is not in question; only a school official.

Melkor

As you read my post here, keep in mind that I'm an atheist, and I had a Darwin Fish stolen off of my vehicle last year.

I think it is inappropriate for a teacher to wear a shirt of that nature while acting in her capacity with regards to the school (i.e., teaching). I think it is disrespectful of the belief systems (if any) of the kids she is there to teach, and crosses the line between "secular" and (for lack of a better term) "proselytizing", just as if she were a Muslim teacher who wore a t-shirt saying "There is no god but Allah, and Mohammed is His messenger"... or if she was a Catholic, wearing a t-shirt that said "Follow the Pope, he's always right".

Public schools are not the appropriate venue for teachers to be spreading their belief systems... and while atheism is arguably not a "belief system", per se, this can be easily used by the other side of this argument for an excuse to proselytize THEIR faith via the schools.... and I think most of us here agree that there is too much of that going on already.

pz

I disagree. The Darwin fish is not a testament to a "belief system", and is not a provocation for people to abandon their religion -- it is a humorous attempt to promote education, which is something a teacher ought to do.

Would a geologist who wears a t-shirt with a satellite view of a spherical earth be "proselytizing"? It might offend somebody who believes in a flat earth. I've got a t-shirt with an exploded view of the auditory circuitry of a fish -- could that be interpreted as favoring a materialist view of the brain, and is therefore offensive to someone who believes in mind-body dualism?

Oh, and I celebrated Darwin Day in my class this week, too. I put a big note on the whiteboard that said, "Happy Darwin Day!" and gave them an exam.

Melkor

I agree that it's not a promotion for a "belief system". It's a clear statement that is anti-belief.

And it opens the door to others that are promoting belief systems, or in the least are anti-science, in my opinion.A photograph of the earth is not an intrinsic religious symbol... whereas the "evolve" fish is derived directly from one.

Now, if a t-shirt was worn with a photograph of the spherical earth with a caption like "God did not create this", then we'd have a closer comparison.No, because again, such a thing is not intrinsically derived from a religious symbol, whereas the evolve fish is.

There is no way you can possibly argue to me that the evolve fish and the darwin fish are not inherently "anti-religion", primarily because of the use of the Christian fish symbol as a foundation for the fairly obvious message that they are bringing across.

That's what makes it inappropriate.... allow that, and you also have to allow others to wear t-shirts that have, for instance, the word "Evolution" or "Science" on them with a big red "X" over the word, or even worse things.

Feather

But the Xtian version of the fish is derived from pagan symbology, Melkor. So your reasoning there is kind of self defeating. If Xtianity can appropriate a symbol for religious use, why is it then wrong for a completely areligious body to do so?

No, I just don't buy the notion that the evolvefish is representative of a religious viewpoint. It is scientific fact that evolution happens. Noting it does so by using a fish symbol is little different from using a horse or fly or any other organism shaped symbol.

Just because one particular group of people finds the evolvefish symbol to be offensive doesn't mean the symbol itself has any religious connotation. The teacher could very well have meant to prod the fundies, but they symbol itself doesn't mean anything as regards religious belief, really.

Melkor

Just to clarify a bit, the use of a symbol that means one thing to one group of people to denote something that directly contradicts a tenet of their beliefs crosses that line between being secular and being patently offensive.

Keep in mind here that I'm an atheist as well, and that I am well in favor of evolution being taught, along with any other science, in schools, as well as evolution's history, including any and all things Darwin.

But a teacher loses objectivity when using a symbol that is going over that line of neutrality, and I think that does our cause well more harm than good.

To many Christians, Darwin fish are no different than an upside down cross.... and an upside down cross would certainly not fly well for a teacher to be wearing.

Granted, you and I both know that that is not necessarily the intent of the Darwin and Evolve fish, and is probably not the intent of the teacher who wore it.

But that's not how the "bring down the wall" types see it. They see it as encouragement for them to use public schools as a platform for pushing their agenda, and if it is allowed, then they should be too.

Melkor

Because, like I said, they can use this as an excuse to allow others in the public school systems to be anti-science, and anti-evolution, because they PERCEIVE the evolve fish as being against Christianity.

The cross is derived from a couple of chunks of wood that the Romans used to kill people on... but the Christians have adopted that as one of their main symbols.

Christmas trees and mistletoe are both derived from pagan traditions, but both are adopted by Christians as well.I agree about evolution... and if the teacher in question were wearing a t-shirt that said "Evolution is scientific fact", I wouldn't be arguing against it.

However, the use of a Christian symbol as a part of that statement implies more than just a statement about the veracity of a scientific theory. It implies as well that those that believe in Christianity are WRONG, and that is what crosses the line in this case. Like I said, to you and me it doesn't mean that, but to every Christian who recognizes that particular fish symbol as a symbol of their faith, it is not merely a message about science... it is a message that is quite blatantly against their entire belief system.

wildernesse

Then those "many Christians" need to take off their blinders and live in the real world. And find a sense of humor.

As a Christian, I don't think that evolution or symbols of this (even appropriated symbols) are offensive or promote anti-belief. The only anti- anything it is promoting is anti-ignorance. Which is just fine with me.

Christians who don't accept evolution are wrong--at least about how biological diversity came about on this earth.

--tibac

pz

But that's the problem -- teachers aren't supposed to be neutral! We're supposed to advocate good science.

You're falling for the creationists' bogus 'equality" argument, that it isn't fair. It isn't supposed to be fair. Good teaching isn't about treating stupid ideas with respect.

Melkor

Well, again, I agree 100%... but I don't like giving them any more fricken ammo than they already have, where the courts are concerned.

They see this kind of thing as a wide-open door for them to proselytize in public schools, even though we all know here that it should not.

All we need is for a Christian group to latch onto this teacher being allowed to do this, and have them file suit with a Right-leaning judge, and the next thing we know we have teachers wearing anti-evolution messages on t-shirts.... and I don't think that would be appropriate either.