Gemma Therese

What point of moral reference do you use to conclude cannibalisn is objectively wrong?

Gemma Therese

Mageth

Do people who believe in transsubstantiation also think that, a couple of days later, they defecate Christ?

Are they allowed to flush the Holy Feces or do they have to give them back to the priest for Holy Disposal?

[ July 08, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]</p>

Gemma Therese

Newsflash -- The Host dissolves. I can't believe the irreverence in your post. You have successfully offended about a billion people. How is this different than if I used the "N" word?

Gemma Therese

ohwilleke

Most Protestants other than Catholics and Lutherans take the elements (bread and wine) in communion to be symbolic only, often calling it the Lord's Supper. Catholic doctrine includes the doctrine of transsubstantiation (which was the climatic issue in Bernstein's Mass, e.g., in honor of the late President Kennedy). Lutheran doctrine is that God is in, under and through the elements of communion, and also in all other things in the world --- i.e. lip service to actual presence, but really a symbolic position.

I don't know what the Orthodox or Anglican positions on the issue are.

Mageth

Newsflash -- The Host dissolves. I can't believe the irreverence in your post. You have successfully offended about a billion people. How is this different than if I used the "N" word?

Newsflash: it's a cracker and some wine, food just like any other food you ingest. And it's digested just like any other food; what doesn't get digested has to go somewhere.

The "N" word is a racist slur directed at an ethnic group who are what they are by virtue of birth. My "insult" was directed at a ridiculous dark ages belief held by a group of people.

And "irreverence" is irrelevant to me.

Gemma Therese

Nice to know you feel that way. Well, at least your not very original. Anti-Catholicism from both the religious-right and the free-thinking left is age-old.

Gemma Therese

[ July 08, 2002: Message edited by: Gemma Therese ]</p>

Bree

Right on, Mageth. The truth is - the communion host and wine are two elements that are simply this: food. They will always be molecularly bread and wine. They will never cease to molecularly be bread and wine.

Any other meaning that this bread and this wine takes on are all in your head. There is no meaning in the food until you give it meaning. That's all there is to it.

You can't be so inane as to say you take offence at the simple bodily functions God supposedly gave us, eh? And as far as three billion or whatever people being offended? I only see one person with her [edited for content]. .

[ July 08, 2002: Message edited by: Bree ]</p>

ohwilleke

To be fair Gemma, having grown up in a family with some branches that are Catholic and others that are Lutheran, I have been present when Catholics, obviously much more devoutly, have asked their priest what amounts to the same question (and even in the Lutheran church that I grew up in, those of a mind to do so, speculate about the proper means of disposal of unused wine and communion bread with the more "Orthodox" arguing strongly for the importance of having the presiding clergyman consume it all). Merely asking questions (even if not meant as devoutly in this case as some might ask them), is a potential teaching point for you.

Also recall that pre-Vatican II, a common passtime for curious and restless young Catholics was to head for the balcony, with the memorized Latin words of the key moment of the Mass memorized, to see if they could observe a difference in the bread or wine from above, and that many Catholics couldn't even fairly restate the Mass in their own venacular language since there were not eurdite enough to learn Latin.

Based upon my admittedly anecdotal experience and surveys on other issues regarding Catholic belief that I have seen, I would venture to say that transubstantiation belief would be far from unanimous even among Catholics who regularly attend the Mass. I'm sure many who believe in a full blow heaven populated with angels and Saints, hell and purgatory, still don't think that transubstantiation happens "every time."

Mageth

Anti-Catholicism from both the religious-right and the free-thinking left is age-old.

Fortunately, these days my irreverence towards Catholic superstitions won't get me tortured and burned at the stake. And I wonder why some people are anti-catholic?

BTW, does the Vatican pledge say "one City, eating God..."?

Bree

I always thought that, in Catholicism, the priest had to consume the remaining host and wine. It was always a big joke when I 'had' to go to Mass with my grandmother - she would always say that the bottle of wine kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger!