Slex

This one's been on my mind lately, but I didn't want to post it if I am not sure that I will be able to formulate it well and if I am not able to participate in a discussion on it. But since I have been quite busy, and probably will remain so in the weeks to come, I decided to post it anyway. Also, if it has been on this board before, tell me. I haven't seen it discussed, but I'm not quite regular, so...
I got my 'inspiration' from two different posts on <a href="http://science.box.sk" target="_blank">http://science.box.sk</a> but I can't find the links right now. The first post was about moment and mind - sth like 'what would happen if you popped up in the world out of nothing as a grown up individual - will you be able to survive if you have no previous experience, will you have self-consciousness". Aha, here it is. I found a saved copy of the discussion on my HDD:

"Hakkinen writes: <a href="http://www.west.net/~ke6jqp/" target="_blank">http://www.west.net/~ke6jqp/ spacetime/spacetime.html </a> says:
"It is well known that the space/time continuum is curved. Recently, it has been possible to detect that this curvature has, in fact, happened. We, as three-dimensional beings, perceive time only as a result of memory. We remember what was as a variable interval from what is now. If we had zero memory, we could not detect time - !!!HERE IT IS!!! WE WOULD EXIST ONLY FOR THE MOMENT. The result of this is our apparent perception of time as a linear line, always going forward. This is similar to primitive peoples perceiving the Earth as flat. It could be infinite - the horizon always kept bringing something new no matter how far they traveled - or it could be finite, in which case there was the risk of falling off the edge.

So, What is EXIST FOR THE MOMENT. A moment needs time. a moment cannot stand alone. Every unit being alive is time, a moment is also time or not?"

The other one was a post named: "Does Time really exists?"

So, I started thinking about what time is and what is the relation between time and consciousness, and I ended up that it is very unlikely that God (as well as any other Supermind) is out of time, i.e. that God created time along with matter.

Basically, what is time? We measure time by using units such as seconds, minutes, hours, days, years, etc. Our cornerstone for this is the motion of the Earth around the Sun. For people on Earth, time is based on this particular motion and without it, our concept of time will be sth different, we will have to find another moving object by which to measure time. But what if there are no moving objects? If the whole Universe is still and nothing moves, can we say then that time actually doesn't exist? I think that there are two variants here. The first is that time really will not exist. The second one is that time will actually exist but we will not be able to detect it and measure it. But what does it mean that we will not be able to detect it? If in a still Universe, with nothing moving, we place someone with mind, with self-consciousness, he will be able to use use his reasoning as a gauge (I should note here that the impossibility to detect whether time will exist or whether time will really existis not the issue - my point is that Mind (as the projection of thoughts) can only exist in time). He will be able to count from one to ten e.g. His very thoughts will imply motion, because our thoughts are a succession of words or images. And a succession is a motion, and time is (from dictionary.com) 'A nonspatial continuum in which events occur in apparently irreversible succession from the past through the present to the future.' This would apply for every Mind, not only to human, as long as we stick to the dictionary definition of mind (where thinking and thought are quite actively used to define it).
Of course, one possible objection is that God has his own ways. That instead of thinking, he just knows - instead of linear succession of thoughts he has this rigid still matrix of many thoughts. I mean sth like what very good chess players are capable of forming, when playing against 50 people simultaneosly, tracing all 50 games simuiltaneosly as opposed to their opponents, who trace just their particular game. But regardless of how many games the chess player can trace, how many games his mind can span and how many turns ahead he can foresee, on a micro level, the building unit is again a thought, even though a 'larger' one.
Even if such a matrix is possible (I could not make myself very clear with this chess example I think, hope you understand me though), at one point this supposed God decides to create time, universe and everything, but a decision also requires motion of thoughts (check the dictionary for a definition on 'decision'), he can't decide to create time before time exists, because a decision is only possible if there is time (BTW I find the very expression .before time is an oxymoron).

Well, this is it. For lack of time, I will not be able to post much, but I will follow the responces. Comments are welcomed.

[ October 11, 2002: Message edited by: Slex ]</p>

Amos

God is perfectly in time but does not need a clock to keep track of time. Because God is perfectly in time it can be said that God is not time conscious and so the division of time in seconds and minutes is not needed for God and in fact, it would make God like us which would also mean that God would some-day die, and we wouldn't want that now, would we?

Philosoft

The common "God is outside of time" arguments are, frankly, stupid. They amount to nothing more than, "Time only exists within the universe, God the creator by definition is outside of his creation; therefore he is outside of time." Which, of course begs the question that "outside of time" is a legitimate state of existence, not to mention a thinkable concept in the first place.

Amos

Hi Philosoft, I think you have that backwards (not that you are stupid but just confused for a moment here).

First of all, time as we know it does not exist but is a concept that exist only in our conscious mind so we can keep track of our own behavior while we live beside ourselves.

Next, the universe does not exist but only and all that which exists finds its existence in the universe.

Therefore, God is inside of existence, outside of the universe (because if God is inside of existence he does not occupy space in the universe), and God is inside of time but because we did not want God be in charge of our destiny we extrapolated intermitted segments to time to keep track of ourselves.

[ October 11, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>

Philosoft

This should be good.

<strong> Does the proof of this only exist as a concept as well?

<strong> Hey, I agree! The universe isn't a thing, it is all things.

<strong> Sometimes I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Amos, I don't mean to be flippant with my replies, but have you considered the reason many of us here express such exasperation with your arguments is because we really don't know what the hell you're talking about?

Keith Russell

Greetings:

'Time' is simply a way to measure (compare) differing rates of change.

If something were 'outside of time' (kind of a misnomer, since time is only an evaluation, not an actual 'thing') one could not change, one would be unchanging.

One could not act, one could not think, one could not 'do' anything. (Actions are changes.)

If 'God' is outside of time, 'God' would be in stasis. Forget about prayer, forget about 'God' 'maintaining' the universe, forget about 'God' judging anyone, or coming to earth as Jesus, etc.

(Well, honestly, you can forget about all that stuff anyway; God is not possible.)

Keith.

Amos

</strong>

It is, just watch </strong>

No because time-as-we-know-it is not known in our subconscious mind or we would not have to keep track of who we really are and therefore live beside ourselves. </strong>

Thanks, but in agreeing you also concur that the universe as such has no existence outside of its combination of things because it cannot be both, that which exists in it and that which it is outside of its things in it. </strong>

From the above it follows that if God is in creation he must be inside of the things in the universe and is therefore outside the universe because God is not the thing but God the thingness of the thing that exists inside what we call the universe. If God was inside the universe God would directed by the thing and could not effectively be the cause of the nature (thingness) of the thing to make adaptation (change) possible and without change evolution would not be possible.

It is really very simple and we can disagree with theology but not with the organisation and structure of the universe.

luvluv

I don't see why you folks have any harder of a time with God living outside of time than with God living outside of the universe.

Since time is a function of space in our universe, it is easily seen how a God outside of our universe would not be confined to OUR time at least. Perhaps there is a time in His universe, but it does not correspond to time in our universe in any degree. If it makes you feel better, you could just say that God's time is not the same as our time, and that God can look at our time, from the standpoint of his time, much like we could look at a filmstrip. So it is not necessary that you conceive of God as living without time, only that he has special observational opporunities to our time given to Him by the fact that He lives outside of our universe. This is not how I think it actually is, but this should be easier to concieve and still defeats all the notions about God's omniscience being incompatible with free will. Well call it soft ex tempo (or whatever the latin words for outside time would be, somebody correct me) as opposed to hard ex tempo. Soft ex tempo should be easier to visualize, okay?

Olorin

How does it defeat the notion that God's omniscience is incompatible with his own free will?

[ October 12, 2002: Message edited by: Olorin ]</p>

K

luvluv:

Why do you find it so easy to accept that there is a being outside of time and space that has the ability to work spatially and temporally in our universe? How could an aspatial / atemporal being possibly do such a thing?