Doug

Sometimes I feel like I do.

I was out with some acquaintances tonight and I brought the subject up. One of them I know pretty well and see him as a smart, logical fellow. The other I know less well, but surmised that he too was a smart logical guy. He also happened to be the son of a Seventh Day Adventist minister, but he clearly is not currently an adherent of that sect.

Somehow the subject of religion came up and the closer acquaintance said he was an Episcopalian (as in, still is an Episcopalian). This surprised me, given other conversations about philosophy and so forth. I asked him point blank if he actually believed in God and Jesus, leading him to kind of dance around the issue.

This lead to the child of the Seventh Day Adventist minister to pronounce that the subject of religion was beaten to death and didn't need to be rehashed yet again. He stated that he thought that I might be trying to get something "out of my system", leading me to always wind up on the subject of religion (we have met only a couple of times before and I recall that the subject came up then as well).

I think the atheist/agnostic population here do like to discuss religion, especially how we dislike Christianity (many here are former Christians). The statement that the former Seventh Day Adventist acquaintance made about "getting it out of my system" got me thinking.

I told the guy that my motivation was that I want to determine the thoughts of people that I think might at least be leaning against organized religion. I feel that I want to help people think rationally about it, especially those people where I detect some semblance of rational thought. I basically want to make a difference in the lives of those that kind of sit on the fence with regard to organized religion.

Where I start to doubt myself here is when I realize that I do indeed talk often about religion and the idea that is all hogwash and I start to compare my actions to that of a proselytizing Christian. I think I do proselytize at times reagarding my lack of belief in any supreme being. It's important to me that people let go of the myths they were raised in, especially if they are already questioning those beliefs.

Is this wrong? I personally loathe people that "witness" to others about Christianity. Is what I am doing so different? I'm not so sure.

[ May 31, 2002: Message edited by: Doug ]</p>

Bree

I am certainly not you, Doug - but I know that I bring up the subject of religion with my peers and friends so I can know exactly where they stand with God and all the extras.

It also gives me a starting point for other subjects too - if they are extreme Christians and are "secure" in their faith, I know I'm probably not going to be well-received if I come out to them as a lesbian.

Besides - religion (or lack of it) is a topic that I know a lot about - so there's nothing wrong with talking about something that makes you look smart...right?!

Tercel

Doug,
Unless you are feeling threatened in some way by organised religion, I don't really see why you'd want to convince people it's wrong. If they are getting something out of it, and it's working for them, what exactly do you achieve by convincing them otherwise? You're most likely to cause them emotional stress by seriously challenging their worldview as opposed to achieving anything helpful.
Most of my friends are fundamentalists and Young Earth Creationists. Very few of them even know I'm not of the same opinion and of those that know, I don't discuss it with them: It's their faith and it's not my place to shake it by telling them I believe something different -unless they ask for my opinion of course.
But I don't see any potential gain for your challenging people's faith. How are they any better off if you actually manage to convince them?
I frankly can't see any difference between what you are doing and what evangelising Christians do, save perhaps that evangelising Christians actually have a sound motivation (in their own minds at least) for their actions...

excreationist

It's about the same really. Both people are asserting that they know the truth and the other person is deluded or misguided. Maybe you could just point out, when they are on the subject of religion, that you don't believe that any gods of any religion exist. Just to show that atheists exist and are pretty decent people. Then go on the defensive. They can question their own faith when they are alone - I don't think you should go on the offensive.

Vorkosigan

I think it is important to stop focusing on the "rational thought" aspects of atheism. I mean, it's pretty rude to label someone irrational up front. As a tactic, it doesn't seem destined to work.

I have to side with Tercel on this one. I never argue with liberal christians except here at Infidels. Most of them are thoroughly secularized and their religion, such as it is, has been reworked by secular values and has become a positive force in their lives. Like Tercel, although it can't be entirely positive if it impels him to come here to dash his brains against us .

The real danger is the Reich-wing Christians. The more I am in contact with them, the more I fear their long-term political goals. The nice thing about them is that since they are prosyletizing, you are relieved of any moral burden for evangelizing back.

We've had a couple of threads along these lines lately, and i think the consensus has been that people happy with their religion should be left alone. I think the middle approach, a low-key announcement that you are an atheist without any attempt to evangelize, should be enough to "out" any doubts.

Vorkosigan

Bookman

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Bookman

Perchance

Doug,

I've felt like I have the same problem (as in, I like to discuss religion lately, and I'm afraid that I'm intruding on other people's beliefs in so doing). I was one of the "sitting-on-the-fence" people for a long time; I described myself as agnostic, but since I usually had to explain to another person who asked me about my beliefs what that meant, religious discussions never got very far off the ground.

I started to get more interested in religion around September 11th, and also when I realized that there were many, many people around me who took the Bible literally. (Part of it was also have to come up with explanations for why English papers based on the Bible don't work, at least not with the Bible as their only source). I think talking about religion is acceptable in the same way that talking about any other personal interest- for example, a certain sport or television program- is acceptable: as long as it doesn't bore the other person to death, what's the harm?

I'm only slowly coming to realize that other people don't see it the same way, that for some people any questioning of religion at all is "evil." I suppose I'm going to try to avoid religious confrontations in the future, while talking about it with people I know are interested in and neutral about it. However, if someone asks you point-blank about your beliefs, I think you are perfectly responsible in defending them (as other people have said ), and especially in pointing out that your beliefs aren't any less "true" than theirs.

And if someone who brings up the topic of religion himself thereafter wants to avoid it... well, I suppose I would wonder what he was afraid of. Some people also see any argument/discussion at all as destructive, which to me is silly, but there you go.

-Perchance.

[ June 01, 2002: Message edited by: Perchance ]</p>

seebs

Also, depending on where you set your standards, either it's sometimes wrong, or it's always right, of atheists as well as theists. My internal system of beliefs was the result of applying reason to my experiences; this doesn't mean I have proof for most of it, but I had to start somewhere, and the axioms I chose continue to seem to fit the world.

2tadpoles

Doug, a while back I started to notice the same thing about myself. Although it wasn't really important to me for others to give up their beliefs, it was important to me that others accept mine. Religion comes up frequently where I live, and some people are very judgemental.
I only know one other atheist in real life. All my friends are theists to a certain degree. They're not all Christians, but theists nonetheless. I still bring up religion fairly soon when I meet someone I like, only because I've been dumped by "friends" after the subject came up. It sucks to think you've made a good friend, only to have something stupid like religion ruin it. I'd rather know up front what kind of person someone is. If they are so closed-minded as to forfeit our friendship because I don't believe like them, I'd rather find out sooner than later.

Anyway, I read a quote from someone (can't recall who) that made me stop and think about my actions. It said "a fanatic is someone who won't change the subject and can't change his mind." I started thinking that I certainly had been acting a bit fanatical, and began making a conscious effort to think of other things to talk about. Although I still drive my apathetic agnostic husband nuts with religious talk occasionally. And even though I discuss religion with nearly every potential friend at the beginning, I avoid the subject after "coming out" and being accepted for who I am.

Krieger

I never bring up religion in a conversation, but if someone is really pushing their beliefs on me (usually a Xian) I'll gladly enlighten them with the fact that their religion is a sham.