Sabine Grant

You mean I am not the only heretic here who attributes the meaning of the womb to the water ? look it up.... yes yes yes... good point about the thief...and the folks who may have recieved Christ in their last hours of life....I wonder how christians who add conditions to salvation by faith in Christ will protest in Heaven as they face the very people they condemned.... maybe resign? go on strike? have a demonstration?

Or will they rejoice?

Rational BAC

Rereading Tarnaak's explanation of why he thinks the Baptismal ceremony is not a true "born again" experience---and it does seem like he is reading into the Scripture what he wants to read into it and much more than is really there.

In this lifetime, and at the pearly gates, I thing anyone can make an excellent case that he or she has been born again simply by the act of having undergone a Christian baptism or Christening as an infant. Read the words to the baptismal ceremony---being born again is what that ceremony is all about.

Baptism does seem to suffice quite nicely, at least in a technical way for being "born again". A confirmation ceremony would definitely help some, but when push comes to shove, it is just an add-on. And a personal epiphany away from any organized Church later on in life is also very nice, but superfluous really.

Here is the proposition. ----All baptized Christians are "born again"-----There is nothing really special about it.

All Christians who have undergone baptism have satisfied the requirement, even if it is just in a technical way, for salvation.

Born againers are wasting their time trying to get other people to be "born again" as a necessity for their salvation. All Christians are "saved" in that way.

IMHO

Sabine Grant

Bonjour BAC.... are you implying that baptism is a necessity for salvation. I am confused as to what your personal belief is. I do not separate " being reborn in the Spirit " from salvation.

Sabine Grant

oh .. also..the choice and act of accepting Christ as a personal savior requires an understanding of God's plan of salvation. How can an infant have that understanding?
I consider infant baptism more as a ritual or desire for the parents to make a public commitment to the visible church of their intention to raise the child in the christian faith than an actual state of the infant being " born again".
For that matter.... Christ was baptized in his adulthood and he obviously did not require for his baptism to be an act of salvation.

Rational BAC

But then again Sabine-----you are reading into the words and adding the logic that you want to add.

I still state that a baptized Christian has fulfilled the minimum requirements to be a "born again" and is allowed salvation.

Those who make a lifelong project out of making other "unsaved" born again Christians be born again born again-------are wasting their time in foolishness. How many times you gotta do it anyway?

Not there. Don't see it.

Sabine Grant

Ok.. are you referring to doctrines such as found in some pentecostal churches where in order to be born again one has to be " baptized in the spirit?" which has to be manifested by the gift of tongues for example?
I do not believe in that condition for salvation. In any case... who decides ultimatly who is saved or who is not? none of us... obviously.

Sabine Grant

so.. a non baptized christian has not fulfilled the minimum requirements to be " born again?"? I thought the only requirement was to accept Christ as He in his very words prescribes it...........where did the thief go then BAC... refer to Muffinstuffer's post. Did he have to do anything else than to have faith in the man crucified by him to benefit of atonement?
I am not reading into words there... I am contemplating the obvious. And by doing so I again entrust God to be the sole party who can evaluate who is saved and who is not.

Rational BAC

Sabine-----------

I never said that a non-baptized ANYBODY could not find salvation.

Actually--------I am very lenient as far as salvation. I truly believe that God can do anything He pleases to do. Or He could not be God.

I believe that an atheist could stand before our Lord. And our Lord could easily say----------"Don't believe ALL the crap that was in the Bible. That whole thing was a man-made document trying to explain Me. And I know that it is full of errors. ----------You lived a fine and very moral life--------------------Come on in !!!"

That is my story and I am sticking to it.

PS-----It is possible that I have lost a friend in Sabine and, in that same way, a friend of many Christians. I don't really care. I believe what I believe.

Darth Dane

I never said that a non-baptized ANYBODY could not find salvation.

Salvation doesn't seem to require any outward act.

Actually--------I am very lenient as far as salvation. I truly believe that God can do anything He pleases to do. Or He could not be God.

Exactly

I believe that an atheist could stand before our Lord. And our Lord could easily say----------"Don't believe ALL the crap that was in the Bible. That whole thing was a man-made document trying to explain Me. And I know that it is full of errors. ----------You lived a fine and very moral life--Come on in !!!"

That is my story and I am sticking to it.

Sounds like a wise appraoch to me.

Check this thread if you want: http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=50675
It deals with the same idea.




DD - Love Spliff

Opera Nut

I missed out on the third part previously described. I got baptised, full dunk as an adult, prayed my ass off,read my Bible, believed with all my heart, but the Holy Spirit or Jesus or God never showed up and talked to me. DIdn't happen. Couldn't make it happen. So I left.

The problem with Xtianity is that they demand that everybody have the same subjective experience of "getting right with God" or "having a special relationship with Jesus", and you cannot force anyone to have a subjective experience. I couldn't have one, so I left and went back to secular humanism, as I still have no evidence that God exists, since no spirits talked to me.