Samhain

I'm just curious as to if there has been any foreign response to this ridiculousness. Have any other countries said anything concerning this topic or the behavior of some of these people trying to maintain this breach of Constitutionality? I know that there probably isn't as many countries have their own concerns and need not deal with such idiocy of we Americans, but I just wanted to see if anyone else has called out some of these idiots for their bigotry. Further, what do some of the non-American infidels think about this whole scandal?

Spazmatic

The Europeans no doubt support us. Though most of them don't have literal constitutional freedom of religion, they end up having more freedom than we have cuz nobody gives a shit (they also have very low church attendance rates). They are probably applauding American atheists making a stand against the intolerant (atheism was successful in Europe LONG before it had any success here).

liquid

I watch both UK and belgian news reports. There has been almost no reporting of this, either way. I would imagine the editors really do think it is some silly internal squabble, although which side they think is the silly one I can't work out. More than anything else, we don't see it as much of our business (speaking for Europe as a whole, not personally).

The couple of times I have seen it mentioned, there was no criticism of the ruling, or even mention of the backlash. And as an 'impartial' observer (despite the obvious bias of my atheism, which makes me feel the judgement is right morally), I can find no legal fault at all with the judgement. Even if I try my hardest to play devil's advocate.

I also see that I know a lot more than most Americans about your own justice and constitutional systems.

Incidentally, in the UK we are undergoing a similar thing. The established religion, the Church of England, has appointed (with government/royal input) a new, liberal and seemingly thoroughly nice man, Rowan Williams, as its head - the Archbishop of Canterbury. As such, he guides Anglicans the world over.

He is actually quite in favour of disestablishment, although may be forced to moderate his views to appease some people. I believe (but don't quote me on this), that he wants to remove all govt/church interference except perhaps a couple of representative bishops in the house of lords (we have several at the moment). I suspect he is also in favour of including a muslim, sikh, and hindi component in the Lords too, although of course it is not remotely up to him. But it's a good idea for an partially appointed second chamber, just as it should have several scientists, businesspeople, agriculturalists etc, to provide expert views.

Anyway, the whole upshot of this is very little. A few articles in the broadsheets and a couple of small news reports. Calm. Nice.

Choccy

Well, here's one norwegians view. The thing that surprised me the most when I first heard about this thing was that kids actually had to recite the pledge at the beginning of every schoolday, at least that's what I've been told. If that is true then I think I might start to understand the cause of the blind patriotism that seem to be so much more prevalent in America than in Europe a little bit better.

[Gross Oversimplification Mode]
To me religion and patriotism are just two different faces of the same underlying human shortcomings, or something like that.
[/Gross Oversimplification Mode]

Anyway, I and I suspect most norwegians who have an opinion on the issue support the atheists in this case. The last thing the world need is a Christian version of the Taliban seizing power in America.

Choccy

Samhain

Damn, I really need to get out of this country, even if it's for only a couple of weeks. I can't stand it here right now. With all respect to the theists, I don't think we will have anything such as an xian Taliban here, the fanaticism only goes so far before being placed in check with the political correctness, of course, this does not necessarily mean that the political correctness extends into the realms which many of the fanatics are blatantly ignorant of, such as law, etc. I figured that this issue would not be important enough to grace foreign news, and rightfully so, I feel that it should be the same way here, a little article explaining things from an objective sense, of course, that is much to much to ask for considering the amount of fanatacism that the fundys seem to hold in check until moments such as this. It is refreshing to hear some foreign, objective views for once, living here really does hamper the general populous' ability to see things clearly and objectively as the entire media network here seems to have its own political agenda.

Choccy:

I think understand your feelings about religion/patriotism, but I would not say that I would agree with them 100%. Correct me if I misunderstood you, but for me, patriotism can be a much better than religion. The problem is when that patriotism turns into a type of ideology that is reminiscent of religious ideology. We saw too much of what I call the "false" patriotism directly following the 9/11 attacks, and we still must deal with the remnants of that. When patriotism gets to the point it did people seem to become blinded by it as opposed to allowing it to empower them. I have great respect for my country, if for nothing more than the foundations that this country was based upon. I do not, however feel that this country is in any way "great" in any fasion besides economic and perhaps military. Granted, there are many things in this country that I would consider "great" but none that so much stand apart from the others as the two listed above. I do not allow my patriotism to blind me into believing that this country doesn't have its fair share of problems, actually, I feel this country has a whole lot of problems concerning a wide range of things, and while it's doubtful that I would leave this country for another, permanently, sometimes I get the feeling that because I am not "patriotic" (in the "normal" sense), 'God'-fearing, or a supporter of capitalism that I am not wanted here, and for the most part, when concerned with the many people that I do not come in contact with, I'm sure that a lot of people would be happier without me in this country. Well, to make a short story long, I can see that patriotism and religion share similar qualities, and may be near-identical in many fashions when taken to an extreme, but, when perceived in correct fashion (the fashion portraying that it is a citizens right, nay, obligation to question his/her government) then patriotism can be an empowering thing.

Spazmatic

My Utopia kingdom is mostly Swedish. They support the ruling. I have contact with people in Britain... They seem to support it to. Though, sometimes, I had to tell them what the ruling was. But, like I've said a hundred times to Fundies, Europeans generally think American Fundies are silly.

Syphor

The media here reported on it the same day the ruling was made. The piece took a neutral view and just stated that "God and patriotism go hand in hand in the US" or something like that. I've heard nothing from the local media since. While 70% of Australians are Christian, we're largely a secular society and religion is a matter of personal choice, nothing more besides private schools and churches. Religion has absolutely nothing to do with our patriotism, and I’ve found that those who openly profess their beliefs are quite rare.

Even our Prime Minister, who is Anglican (and who I am most certainly NOT a fan of) practices his religion privately. I personally find myself quite dismayed whenever I see President Bush talk about his "one God" as if it were fact. Talk about alienating the 20 odd million non-religious population in the US.

Atheist121

Personally, I find myself dismayed whenever I hear Bush talk

That's it, I'm moving to Europe. Maybe Rare or Mucky Foot or someone has a job opening for a game developer. Wait a minute, I'm pretty sure John Carmack isn't a fundy and he lives in Texas...

Grumpy

For non-US media, I'd think the major story would be the huge backlash against the ruling, not the ruling itself. As far as the rest of the world is concerned, the US Pledge of Allegiance has little significance, and the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals has none.

But when the U.S. Congress and president and media go ape as they have (as I've said, in a way I haven't seen since Sept. 11), other countries are bound to take notice, if only for curiosity's sake.

Syphor

How does the average American view so-called "faith healers"?

The reason I ask is that one of these prominent healers visited our country a few months back, which was viewed very sceptically by the media as well as a curiosity.

I suppose it is similar with the current pledge issue, international media probably view it as a curiosity. A lot of foreigners (including myself) probably don't understand why God is necessary to be patriotic.

No he certainly isn't the sharpest knife in the draw is he

Personally, as an outside observer I found Clinton to be an infinitely more intelligent man. Like him or otherwise. He didn't strike me as a fundy like Dubya or daddy Bush either