haverbob

No, that was just a little smelling salts. I thought you were out for the count before you could answer my inquiry so I was trying to see if I could revive you.

Yes...right word, "Unfortunately". That's the way I see it also. I couldn't swallow it when I saw it either.

I love the word "Supernatural". It's great because it can be anything that you want it to be. Very useful. So it looks like natural phenomenas chase away (or actually "ambush" according to the quote) Supernatural phenomenas. Does this sound correct to you?

River

yes.

EstherRose

Hi River,

Would you please explain this science in the koran to me?

Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water. And he found near it a people. We (Allâh) said (by inspiration): "O Dhul-Qarnain! Either you punish them, or treat them with kindness." (Al-Kahf 18:86)

Or in keeping with your medical background, which I also have, please explain this one.

Then We made the Nutfah into a clot (a piece of thick coagulated blood), then We made the clot into a little lump of flesh, then We made out of that little lump of flesh bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh, and then We brought it forth as another creation. So blessed be Allâh, the Best of creators. (Al-Mu'minun 23:14)

Are there any scientists who can validate these claims in the koran?

haverbob

Sorry about the repeat message, it's not letting me delete it. If a moderator is reading, please delete last message.

"Yes"

Well okay. This was a nice exercise. You know, I'm always amazed by how far some people are willing to go to meet their personal needs (and you NEED Allah, you've already said that.) They are willing to believe anything or create any explanation in their minds that they possibly can, so long as it protects their idea. They use pointless words like "Supernatural" if that's what it takes.

And you know why? Because it HAS to be true, otherwise they THINK they would immediately crumble (or at least lose all their interest for life). That's how they think. It looks like you obviously have NO CHOICE but to submit to Allah (your particular obsession) for this reason. That's unfortunate. Maybe it would have been better to have a choice and then make the right or beneficial choice. That would be a little more special as far as I can tell. I don't believe that that has ever been possible for you and perhaps it never will. That's ashame, but at least the cage is well decorated with all the immenities. Well, I'm bored now. Nice talkin' to ya'. It was fun, and that's what I'm here for.

River

I really appreciate your sincere interest in the arabic Quran. I will direct you to leading Anatomist and Embryologist Keith Moore. Keith Moore PhD, FIAC, FRSM is the Professor Emeritus of Anatomy and Cell Biology Faculty of Medicine, University of Toronto, Ontario, Canada.

http://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-a.htm

River

-Haverbob

Why are you upset. I have done my best to accomodate you. Is it not possible that humans can always fully understand ontological arguments.

I have read dozens of scriptures and I personally feel that the Quran is the most practical. It does not appear to force people to believe in something that is too out of the ordinary and is the only scripture that emphasizes both reasoning and faith. I understand that many are in the habit of nit-picking but do you not realize that there are some things that you or I might not perceive.

I am not like the many Muslims that say Everything is in here. I mean everything is...but ..when I mean it ..I mean it in another sense. You will probably not find your name or mine it..or the alphabets of all other languages. but It is understood that the Quran has multiple layers of meaning...not all layers are meant to be construed by all individuals. G-d only expects us to understand it at our own personal level and mental acuity.

It is true the Quran is the Uncreated word of G-d and many Muslims believe that it is not open to interpretation. However, I believe that it is open to interpretation. I believe a certain degree of flexibility is allowed on the part of individuals. Islam is not a monolith. History proves this. the beauty of Islam is that its Unity lies in its Diversity. However, many individuals( not you) have chose anti-islamic websites to understand Islam. This is obviously not the most prudent way to visualize Islam.

Say, there are 1000 verses that make sense to you and this one verse is somewhat ambiguous, why do you suddenly drop all faith in the Scripture. I am sure in some other texts you will find a surprisingly high frequency of vague verses as well as some that are unquestionably inaccurate. Perhaps that one verse makes sense when you interpret in another angle. Or perhaps
that verse actually says something different than your mind comprehends. Why not continue your search for a few years. Most defenders of the Bible conclude that it (the Bible) is not meant to be read literally. The Quran however, for the most part is meant to be read literally. This does not , though preclude the possibility that some verses are of a more metaphorical nature (as many Islamic scholars have asserted)


If you chose you may pick up Approaching the Quran: the early Revelations by Michael Sells. It deals with how certain nouns in the Quran are on the verge of personification but not quite due to subtle manner of presentation. It also talks about the role of gendered nouns that are sometimes nuetered in translation due to slight but not total personification of some nouns and concept. It is a brilliant reading , I promise you.





[4:82 Quran]" Do you not read the Quran with care? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy,"

I have ended with this verse, not as some sort of an opener to finding discrepancy. But as a reminder to treat the Quran with care and an open , (not combative, as some ) mind .

-River .

ON HIATUS

haverbob

Sorry you seem like a nice guy. Could you please private message or e-mail me if you wish to continue (I can't send to you). I don't think others would be very interested in what the two of us are talking about.

I'm surprised to learn that you have also taken Psychology courses, but it appears that you can't see what I was getting at in the last post because you didn't really answer to it. Maybe you should ask for your money back.

Yes, the interpretation that suits your point of view, your needs. What have you accomplished with that? That's like kicking a ball to the left of a goal, and having someone stand behind the goal and move it to the left so that it goes in.

Congratulations. You're an accurate kicker !!! And then someone asks the kicker "why are you bothering to have those people move the goal? Wouldn't it be better to kick it straight?" And the kicker replies "I am kicking the ball straight, because I know where they are going to move the goal after I kick it". Sounds crazy doesn't it? But that's what people like to do.

diana

On haitus, huh? Hmk. Should you return to this thread, I thought I'd toss in another post for you to ignore. What the hell.

I agree he can be a bit abrasive, but that's part of his charm. It grows on you.

I daresay you've done your best to accomodate all comers to the extent that the Koran will allow. When the Koran still doesn't make sense or uphold what science has shown to be an accurate depiction of reality, you run and hide behind the old "we can't fully understand" arguments.

Your basic assumptions appear to be: (1) there is a god, (2) he not only made us, but has a continuing interest in our activities, (3) he gave us scriptures to guide our behaviors, (4) those scriptures are still in existence today (on earth), and (5) we have ready access to them.

You've read dozens of scriptures, you say. Assuming you read them all before you chose one as "best" (as opposed to growing up in the Muslim faith, accepting it as the true faith, and reading other "scriptures" along the way that you assumed were false before you read them), I admire your honesty and drive. But while you were doing this, how seriously did you consider the possibility that no god exists at all?

I see you've remarked that emotional needs to be more rational in his approach to scripture, and you've hinted that haverbob is also allowing his feelings to cloud his judgment. But how seriously have you considered the possibility that there is no god and no afterlife, that this is all we've got, without allowing your own judgment to be influenced by your fear of death and desire to believe there's someone watching out for you?

It sounds like when you say "everything is in there," you don't really mean anything at all by "everything." It's more of a poetic device, not meant to be understood literally, isn't it?

Christians are fond of doing the same thing. Everything is in the Bible, they say. Really? I should be able to find instructions on building a house, then. Useful, timeless information, that. But other than "build your house on a rock" and "don't divide it against itself" (that one's a stretch, I know), there's no information at all. This is where Christians say, "Not everything everything. You know what I mean." No, I don't. You say "everything" but you don't really mean everything.

All this says to me is that you don't know what you mean, but you're using a phrase that sounds good, impressive, and best of all, comforting.

Would you mind if I reword that sentence? I think you misplaced a phrase. Here: It is true many Muslims believe that the Quran is the Uncreated word of God and that it is not open to interpretation. I think this is what you meant, because when it comes down to it, you are (have thus far shown yourself to be) unable to demonstrate that the Koran is the Uncreated word of God. The best you've been able to "prove" is that you believe it is.

Your belief is not to be confused with fact.

I agree. I do hate it when believers read anti-atheist websites/books/rhetoric and think they understand atheism, so I can identify with you here. How better to understand something than to go to the source? Go to those who subscribe to that viewpoint and ask them questions. Read their literature and think (critically) for yourself. Do you agree?

However, I'll add that it's equally important, if one is to make an informed judgment, to also critically read the literature/rhetoric against that viewpoint. Are the detractors misunderstanding or misrepresenting the opposing viewpoint? Or are those who subscribe to that viewpoint ignoring or glossing over its inherent contradictions?

The most important thing is to think for yourself. I don't think it's possible to do this fairly unless you consider all sides of the equasion.

For this reason, I read the Koran. To be fair, I didn't read it in Arabic. However, the "Koran in Arabic is the only true Koran" position presents some problems. Yes--all translations will fail at some point. But all living languages change meanings over time, so even the Koran doesn't mean the same thing to those living today that it did when Mohammed dictated it. Even were I to learn Arabic in order to best understand the Koran, I--as a native speaker of English--would never be fluent in the language and, at best, would only understand it in light of the concepts I've absorbed from my own native tongue. IOWs, my understanding would still be English-based. So please forgive me for drawing my conclusions based upon an English translation.

It is far and away the most boring book I've ever read. The repetition is mind-numbing. Mohammed appears to have frequently forgotten that he already had certain thoughts on paper--which I suppose is simple to do when you're illiterate--and kept repeating them, often verbatim. There is no rhyme or reason to the order of the book--something scholars admit up front. There is contradiction, and Mohammed admits as much (or Allah, if you prefer, as I'm sure you do), using the old "I said that to test you" rhetoric that Christians are also fond of.

I've asked questions of Muslims concerning their faith (as many have questioned you here) and pointed out verses in the Koran that contradict what science has discovered, and so far, they respond with stuff like

...which is just another way of saying, "You've stumped me, but I'm still convinced the Koran is the Uncreated word of God." In other words, it isn't an answer at all.

I'm very sensitive to "answers" that don't in fact answer anything. Right now, my bullshit detector is clicking like mad.

"Somewhat ambiguous"? Hm.

What you mean is, there's this one verse in a book that supposedly God-breathed that clearly contradicts something science has proven to be true beyond a reasonable doubt. Apologists for that book jump through hoops to explain how it was meant metaphorically or...or...um...poetically (yeah...that's it...that's the ticket), or...oh...this one's my favorite: It was put there to test our faith! There are also the twin "God's wisdom is greater than ours" and the "We just don't have the wisdom to comprehend what he means" trapdoors.

This is not "ambiguity." It is apologetics. It is the desperation of the trapped.

The Christian bible uses the same argument in defense of itself, as I'm sure you know.

When I catch a person lying, they know it, and they tell me, "I don't lie," I don't believe them--I believe what I've seen them do. By the same token, when a text in which I've found contradictions tells me it doesn't have them, I believe my own observations in lieu of accepting as truth its claim about itself.

You may see my approach as argumentative and antagonistic. I see it as common sense.

d

haverbob

Sorry just one more thing, (since you don't feel like private messaging me) and then I'll go.
Because of what you said below.

Yes. I agree. And had it been from Allah and no other, I would have found NO discrepency. This is my answer to your question as to why I throw the whole book out over a discrepency.

I'm not necessarily a huge Bible defender, but at least the Bible was merely the memory of witnesses, and maybe sometimes memories can be faulty. The Quran, however, is the only text that claims to be "THE Direct Word of God, word for word". And you would have to agree with that claim (no way out of that). Therefore, one mistake, discrepency, inconsistency (whatever word you choose) and the whole thing is no longer the direct word of Allah as it clearly claims to be. Don't blame me or my supposed "bias" because I didn't make this rule, or claim of perfection. Either Allah or Muhammed did. I'm just sticking to that rule as they have presented it, that's all.

Alot of the Quran might still be true and have alot of great points, but it would no longer be the word of Allah. Allah does not faulter. Therefore the Quran then becomes nothing but a half decent peice of philosophy. There are plenty of even deeper philosophy books out there, (one's that I'm guessing you never bothered to read because you have "your Quran"). So why would I bother to mess around with the Quran at that point?

By the way, EstherRose asked you 2 questions in her post and you decided to answer only one question as far as I could tell(fetus,blood clot...question). This is most curious. Now I am fascinated. I don't want to bother with whether you were justified in your selective response. Not my concern. What I would really be fascinated to know is EXACTLY what you were thinking when you saw her "sun in the pond" question.

I don't care about why you didn't respond, I care about how you reconciled your decision to not respond. I could never fully grasp this type of thinking when I've seen it from other Muslims as well. Maybe you may just teach me something very valuable in your answer and I could walk away with a little better understanding of this type of thinking. That would be fascinating to hear, if you would be gracious enough to share this with me.

Radcliffe Emerson

A special thanks to Farren, Demosthenes, and TiredJim. They hit it right on the head. Archaelogy, history, have so much proof that goes against anything in either the Jewish or Christian segments of the bible being true, that it's laughable anyone with any kind of reason at all would believe any of it.
The Jewish/Christian god is the most selfish, arrogant, cruel SOB ever invented, and it was invented by humans. Muhammed's Alllah was also man-made.
Pure invention, elaborating on the earlier myths in my opinion.
Almost all of the attributes given to Jesus (born of the Virgin Mary, people guided to him by a star, feeding of the thousands, healing the lame, promising to return, promising heaven, and many more), are originally given to Buddha 500 years earlier.
These myths were stolen by the people who invented Jesus and given to him, nothing more, nothing less.

There is no proof whatsoever of a supreme being of any kind, never has been, and the burden of proof is on believers, because why should any sane person believe this garbage without solid proof?

Oh, for the record, yes I am definitely an infidel. And proud of it.