Freethought & Rationalism Archive

LogicMania · 05-29-2002, 10:16 PM

I think really the best kind of morality is to try to see the positive in everything. Most events and occurances can be seen both positively or negatively. (The world and universe is completely indifferent to human beings and everything at that). It's the realization that things can get better, or one can make things get better, that empowers a person.

I also think that one should except uncertainty over certainty if making deductions do not seem appropriate, or for the lack of evidence, at present. The benefit of doubt is a very essential thing.

We should also look at rationality as a kind of spirituality. A finite a priori map into an infinite world. I use spirituality in the sense of an unconditional appreciation for the world, even though it does not love us back, even though if it acts completely indifferent to us (also, even if its inhabiting organisms compete against us for scarce resources). Clearing up our terminology and using new methodology to give us a better map of the universe is not just a process, it is a real love for the intellect.

Empathy, unconditional love, and openness with one's feelings and thoughts does not need to be justified by God or the State or Society at large. It is justified in the sense that it is healthy and emotionally beneficial to live like this.

To see one as a whole, to see one as made up of parts, to see one as part of a whole, and just to see emergence, in general, is a truly amazing thing. If we all asked questions and spent all of our lives trying to answer them through patient observation and theory, morality wouldn't even be an issue. Science helps us appreciate a world that is quite meaningless and indifferent to us and that in itself is a very strong mentality and it is good. And by good I mean =0). Simple as that.

case · 06-02-2002, 10:17 PM

Are you arguing that morality should be nothing more than how we percieve the universe, or what makes us emotionally well and happy? Because for some people, I think these might be in direct conflict with each other. Not to give credence to theists arguments, but many people feel that a higher power gives meaning to their life. So, as an example, if I were a Christian, and was happy with my life, only to find out that there was no good evidence to support Christianity, I might not be so happy anymore.

I agree that it would be nice if everyone could accept the fact that the universe is the way it is, and enjoy life in spite of it(or because of it), but I'm not so sure this would be possible. I'm also not sure how exactly this would relate to their morality.

LogicMania · 06-03-2002, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by case:
<strong>Are you arguing that morality should be nothing more than how we percieve the universe, or what makes us emotionally well and happy?
</strong>

Yes, in a way. I think we should learn to see things exactly as they are and that a lot of the ways we see them has a lot do with our perception. I think we need to clean out prejudices and get rid of inconsistent thoughts with the world. A lot of people will believe one thing and will believe another and keep both beliefs and have no problem with them being inconsistent with each other. I think we should learn to deal with exactly these logical contradictions and to make a more efficient progress towards understanding how things really are. This is what science is really all about.

Quote:

Originally posted by case:
<strong>
Because for some people, I think these might be in direct conflict with each other. Not to give credence to theists arguments, but many people feel that a higher power gives meaning to their life. So, as an example, if I were a Christian, and was happy with my life, only to find out that there was no good evidence to support Christianity, I might not be so happy anymore.
</strong>

I don't think Christians are really as happy as they first appear to be. I think they do show great joy and happiness towards people and the world through God but I think it is a very limited kind of joy and happiness.

Christians, when their worldview is attacked, tend to go through all kinds of trouble defending their believed to be place in their believed to be universe. They'll defend it through the Fine Tuning Arguments or Presuppositionalism or whatever they can do. They'll misquote evolutionists and distort information about evolution or won't give the whole picture and use only parts. You know the scenario. They believe things as it ought to be and not as it is. So even though they do enjoy their woldview, as soon as it is attacked, they get upset. So upset, they'll do anything, lie, distort information, etc. So even though they're happy, they're happy as long as their closed off from information, which isn't healthy at all. Which really isn't a good happiness that I would like to promote.

Atheists can find their own meaning in this universe. They understand everything should be seen just the way it is. They understand that they have a lot of inconsistent thought and prejudices to get rid of. At least, they should understand this. They do not have any problems with thinking about anything because nothing is a threat to their understanding of the universe. They're happy and at least should be happy with understanding that the laws of nature is what brings everything together and makes them nothing really any better than the universe.

So, yes, I really do think that morality should be exactly about how we perceive the universe. We should learn to perceive it as best as we can. We should not be swayed by authority and if we find erronous thinking, we should get rid of it, even if authority may try to destroy us. We should have an unconditional happiness and love for our understanding, our ability to approximately understand the universe, and the universe as we understand it!

LogicMania · 06-03-2002, 07:49 PM

I don't mean to be group selective here. I just think that anyone can attain a rational perspective of the world. It's not like it's only atheists. Some atheists are atheists for reasons not so well put. Also, I don't mean to make it sound like it is just Christians who are caught up in a limited worldview intentionally cut off from outside information. A lot of people are like this. A great many. All of those people who are big buyers into the New Age movement. Stuff like that.

JL · 06-04-2002, 02:06 PM

Thanks Logic for another weapon in my arsenal. I'm basically paraphrasing: A belief in an omnipotent deity that exists outside of moral judgement (excluding 'good') makes possible contradictory and potentially damaging decisions regarding the behavior and treatment towards our fellow humans. God makes the contradiction palatable to large numbers, which in turn further soothes the conscience of the believer. A very good answer for "What's so wrong for believing even if its not true?"

In the same line of reasoning I was once told by a Christian God transcends logic. Very convenient...

LogicMania · 06-04-2002, 06:01 PM

Wow, I'm glad you think so =0)

LogicMania · 06-04-2002, 06:04 PM

JL, you ever read the book The Pleasure of Finding Things Out by Richard P. Feynman? I think you'll really like it. It really helped me in understanding the goals of science and reason.

JL · 06-05-2002, 02:44 PM

Never read it but I'll put it on my list of books to read, it sounds interesting. Just got a whole batch from Amazon and my local dime store on psychology/philosophy/morality.

05-29-2002, 10:16 PM	#1
LogicMania Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Springfield, Missouri Posts: 77	Morality I think really the best kind of morality is to try to see the positive in everything. Most events and occurances can be seen both positively or negatively. (The world and universe is completely indifferent to human beings and everything at that). It's the realization that things can get better, or one can make things get better, that empowers a person. I also think that one should except uncertainty over certainty if making deductions do not seem appropriate, or for the lack of evidence, at present. The benefit of doubt is a very essential thing. We should also look at rationality as a kind of spirituality. A finite a priori map into an infinite world. I use spirituality in the sense of an unconditional appreciation for the world, even though it does not love us back, even though if it acts completely indifferent to us (also, even if its inhabiting organisms compete against us for scarce resources). Clearing up our terminology and using new methodology to give us a better map of the universe is not just a process, it is a real love for the intellect. Empathy, unconditional love, and openness with one's feelings and thoughts does not need to be justified by God or the State or Society at large. It is justified in the sense that it is healthy and emotionally beneficial to live like this. To see one as a whole, to see one as made up of parts, to see one as part of a whole, and just to see emergence, in general, is a truly amazing thing. If we all asked questions and spent all of our lives trying to answer them through patient observation and theory, morality wouldn't even be an issue. Science helps us appreciate a world that is quite meaningless and indifferent to us and that in itself is a very strong mentality and it is good. And by good I mean =0). Simple as that.

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06-02-2002, 10:17 PM	#2
case Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Missouri Posts: 420	Are you arguing that morality should be nothing more than how we percieve the universe, or what makes us emotionally well and happy? Because for some people, I think these might be in direct conflict with each other. Not to give credence to theists arguments, but many people feel that a higher power gives meaning to their life. So, as an example, if I were a Christian, and was happy with my life, only to find out that there was no good evidence to support Christianity, I might not be so happy anymore. I agree that it would be nice if everyone could accept the fact that the universe is the way it is, and enjoy life in spite of it(or because of it), but I'm not so sure this would be possible. I'm also not sure how exactly this would relate to their morality.

06-03-2002, 07:49 PM	#4
LogicMania Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Springfield, Missouri Posts: 77	I don't mean to be group selective here. I just think that anyone can attain a rational perspective of the world. It's not like it's only atheists. Some atheists are atheists for reasons not so well put. Also, I don't mean to make it sound like it is just Christians who are caught up in a limited worldview intentionally cut off from outside information. A lot of people are like this. A great many. All of those people who are big buyers into the New Age movement. Stuff like that.

06-04-2002, 02:06 PM	#5
JL Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Mawkish Virtue, NC Posts: 151	Thanks Logic for another weapon in my arsenal. I'm basically paraphrasing: A belief in an omnipotent deity that exists outside of moral judgement (excluding 'good') makes possible contradictory and potentially damaging decisions regarding the behavior and treatment towards our fellow humans. God makes the contradiction palatable to large numbers, which in turn further soothes the conscience of the believer. A very good answer for "What's so wrong for believing even if its not true?" In the same line of reasoning I was once told by a Christian God transcends logic. Very convenient...

06-04-2002, 06:01 PM	#6
LogicMania Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Springfield, Missouri Posts: 77	Wow, I'm glad you think so =0)

06-04-2002, 06:04 PM	#7
LogicMania Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Springfield, Missouri Posts: 77	JL, you ever read the book The Pleasure of Finding Things Out by Richard P. Feynman? I think you'll really like it. It really helped me in understanding the goals of science and reason.

06-05-2002, 02:44 PM	#8
JL Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Mawkish Virtue, NC Posts: 151	Never read it but I'll put it on my list of books to read, it sounds interesting. Just got a whole batch from Amazon and my local dime store on psychology/philosophy/morality.

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