Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Infinity Lover · 03-11-2002, 12:05 PM

And on the topic of 'the universe'

Universe... the candy made of limited something from the primal bang on the inside, with a thick layer of infinite nothingness on the outside... yummie!

That's nothing containing something as well.

And God supposedly made this thing called 'creation', not that other misconseption called the universe. I looked it up.

And we supposedly need him, because He has wisdom, and we're incapable of making the correct choices (eating the forbiden fruit was the incorrect choice after all, I looked that up as well)

Wisdom, IS the ability to make the correct choices! Knowledge just makes you knowledgable.
Not that God knows the difference.
Well guess what... wise choices, correct choices are based on certainties, on what you can rely on, on what you can be sure of. Any other choice is a doubtful choice, a dodgy choice...
...like taking millenia old supernatural metaphors litteral for instance.
And to truelly see the light you have to open up this little 'door' inside your head, that's labeled YOU'RE DELUDING YOURSELF! It's a scary thing, but that's where the answers are always hidden. If you don't have one of those doors, you're the only person on the planet, and you're genuinly entitled to call yourself a freak of nature.
See you at the circus?

tronvillain · 03-11-2002, 12:14 PM

Uh, was that response?

Theophage · 03-11-2002, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tronvillain:
That nothing cannot exist does not imply that the universe has always existed, it simply implies that something has always existed. As a result, it is logically possible for the universe to have a creator and your argument fails.

Howdy tronvillan,

You've posted this twice, and this is the second time I quoted it (the first time with additional explanation for Marcel). Do you suppose he'll actually read it and respond to it this time?

tronvillain · 03-11-2002, 12:26 PM

Maybe. Or maybe he'll end up in RR&P again.

Theophage · 03-11-2002, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Marcel Rombouts:
Well guess what... wise choices, correct choices are based on certainties, on what you can rely on, on what you can be sure of.

Choices based upon certainty are foolish choices, since there is no certainty. Wise choices are based upon probability.

theophilus · 03-11-2002, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hinduwoman:
Let us say something exists. But that doesnot mean that is is a conscious intelligent being. It is more probable that it was matter of some kind.

Why is it "more probable?"
It is only so if matter is known to be the primary "stuff" of all forms of existence. Of course to know that, one would have to know all forms of existence.

A3 · 03-11-2002, 06:11 PM

Posted by ReasonableDoubt

Quote:

I suppose that, by "the positive side of life and the side that makes the most sense", you mean recognizinging that life's not all that bad if you're not a Canaanite. Or have you manufactured a more esoteric meaning?

I don't manufacture anything, but if you would like to know where to find it.......

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth: But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee." Deuteronomy 20:16-17 KJV

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Well, [A3,] what's so bad about that??"

This is one of the many instances that there is violence in the Bible. But what the Bible is about (what makes it God's Word) is what is meant by what is in there. Again if you want to find out...
Just here it deals with an ingrained evil intention in an individual. To get rid of it you have to destroy it to the roots.
Taking things literally is a deadend street. But I have been told I shouldn't use so many words

A3

Theophage · 03-12-2002, 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by A3:
Just here it deals with an ingrained evil intention in an individual. To get rid of it you have to destroy it to the roots.
Taking things literally is a deadend street. But I have been told I shouldn't use so many words

A3

It never ceases to amaze me how the supposedly omnipotent God is always forced to use the desparate and imperfect methods of humans to deal with things: Can't be fixed? Destroy it.

A real omnipontent God would have had a better solution than genocide...

Oh, and A3, are you ever going to get around to explaining and supporting your notion of love as a "spiritual substance"? I hope that it (like genocide as a solution to anything) isn't beyond my frail human comprehension...

Jayhawker Soule · 03-12-2002, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Deuteronomy 20:16-17 KJV:
But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth: But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.

Quote:

Originally posted by A3:
This is one of the many instances that there is violence in the Bible. But what the Bible is about (what makes it God's Word) is what is meant by what is in there.

Thanks. That was helpful.

Quote:

Originally posted by A3:
Just here it deals with an ingrained evil intention in an individual. To get rid of it you have to destroy it to the roots.

A3

No - just here it deals with genocide. If you wish to reduce the Bible to some inane and harmless metaphore of your own creation, that's fine. At issue is the selectivity which allows you to dismiss Deuteronomy as parable while embracing the Jesus myths as literal, e.g.,

Quote:

... Jesus alternated between two states. He was called ‘The Son of Man” or “The Son of God”. At times He was the son of Mary or the Son of God. ... And He was the Son of God. After all, it was God who caused Mary to become with child.
< ... snip ... >
The Jews at the time only saw a man, a body that got tired, hungry and could get emotional and cry. The son of a carpenter from Nazareth. All that made it extra tough to see what was going on. To overcome this obstacle He did miracles. [emphasis added - RD]

Godless Dave · 03-12-2002, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by A3:
Many people today, having seen all the misery, say there is no God. If there were a God, He would have prevented it.

That assumes that God is good and wants to prevent human suffering. I believe evil or indifferent gods are just as likely to exist as benevolent ones, so the existence of human misery does not disprove God's existence to me.

Quote:

Now everyone wants proof that He exists. Proof that there is a life after death, etc. But that situation is like a kid refusing to go to school unless someone can proof to him he will live past his 20e birthday.

No, the situations are not alike. In the case of the kid, you can show him or her examples of many other people who have lived past their 20th birthdays, and show how they have benefited from going to school. There are sufficient examples to demonstrate it is very likely he or she will live past 20. With life after death, you cannot provide any examples demonstrating that life after death exists, much less that our behavior and/or beliefs while alive will have an impact on our afterlife.

Quote:

Why not hope for the best and live your life as if you will go past 20? Why live as if everything comes to a screeching halt at the death of the body? Why go through so many years of schooling, apprenticeships, career development, paychecks and exercising and eating healthy just to die. In fact many do die before they reach 20. What are you living for then? See how big a house you can own before you die? How many cars you can own? How many women you can seduce? How big a bank account you can accumulate? How many talk shows you can get on? etc. And then I haven’t even mentioned friends, marriage and children.

Why not look at the positive side of life and the side that makes the most sense, based on the internal meaning of the Bible? And that is the only thing I’m trying to get across.
A3

Why not indeed! But what does the Bible have to do with it? Neither Christianity nor any other religion, nor even a belief in an afterlife, is necessary to look at the positive side of life.

Dave

[ March 19, 2002: Message edited by: Godless Dave ]

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03-11-2002, 12:05 PM	#31
Infinity Lover Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,047	And on the topic of 'the universe' Universe... the candy made of limited something from the primal bang on the inside, with a thick layer of infinite nothingness on the outside... yummie! That's nothing containing something as well. And God supposedly made this thing called 'creation', not that other misconseption called the universe. I looked it up. And we supposedly need him, because He has wisdom, and we're incapable of making the correct choices (eating the forbiden fruit was the incorrect choice after all, I looked that up as well) Wisdom, IS the ability to make the correct choices! Knowledge just makes you knowledgable. Not that God knows the difference. Well guess what... wise choices, correct choices are based on certainties, on what you can rely on, on what you can be sure of. Any other choice is a doubtful choice, a dodgy choice... ...like taking millenia old supernatural metaphors litteral for instance. And to truelly see the light you have to open up this little 'door' inside your head, that's labeled YOU'RE DELUDING YOURSELF! It's a scary thing, but that's where the answers are always hidden. If you don't have one of those doors, you're the only person on the planet, and you're genuinly entitled to call yourself a freak of nature. See you at the circus?

03-11-2002, 12:14 PM	#32
tronvillain Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 5,658	Uh, was that response?

03-11-2002, 12:26 PM	#34
tronvillain Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 5,658	Maybe. Or maybe he'll end up in RR&P again.

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