Corwin

Ok, you answered the question..... (I'm stunned.)

Now... kindly explain how an animal 'consents' to sex?

spin

Corwin:
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Now... kindly explain how an animal 'consents' to sex?
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That's your problem, isn't it?

Tried asking?

.

Corwin

Which brings us to the point.

An animal, (with notable exceptions such as higher primates and some cetateans) is UNABLE to communicate any sort of 'consent' to a human being regardless of it's opinion on the subject. (Such as it is.)

How do you know lab animals aren't consenting? How do you know my dinner didn't go willingly?

I say it's entirely possible... or that in any case the creature had no idea of what was happening to it anyway. (Especially in the case of lamb. But then they barely have an idea of things like 'breathe in, breathe out, breathe in, breathe out.) So....

spin

The Jeffrey Dahmer clone thinks to himself, "this corwin is a moron, as shown by the lack of argument displayed on the secular web. I'll lure it home and kill it: hence it'll end up on my plate for dinner this evening."

Just because you can, Corwin, doesn't make it right. Just because the meat industry is institutionalised slaughter of animals, doesn't make it right to eat other animals. Just because you have no respect for other animals doesn't give you a licence to kill them. Your lack of respect is merely lack of understanding of situations and abilities. Naturally, I have a lack of respect for anyone who unthinkingly shoves dead animals down their gullets. Of course, this means nothing to you because you are busily shoving dead animals down your gullet. I just get a picture from V from all animal eaters.

spin

Corwin for some reason writes:
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Which brings us to the point.
An animal, (with notable exceptions such as higher primates and some cetateans) is UNABLE to communicate any sort of 'consent' to a human being regardless of it's opinion on the subject. (Such as it is.)

How do you know lab animals aren't consenting? How do you know my dinner didn't go willingly?
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You must be *ucking joking. Try to stick a needle into the bloody animal without them being restrained or sedated and see if they consent. Duh.

Corwin for some reason writes:
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I say it's entirely possible...
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You must be *ucking joking. I can see you've never tried it.

Corwin for some reason writes:
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or that in any case the creature had no idea of what was happening to it anyway. (Especially in the case of lamb. But then they barely have an idea of things like 'breathe in, breathe out, breathe in, breathe out.) So....
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Alright, Corwin, eat babies or stop being plain dumb.

Bokonon

I don't think you want to go the route of intelligence. That opens the door for both the severely retarded and for babies, does it not?

I'd argue my dog is far more aware than many of the severely retarded.

sen·tient
1. Having sense perception; conscious:
2. Experiencing sensation or feeling.

I think its quite clear that most species fit the definition of sentience.

One could make an argument against insects and the lower sea animals I suppose, but certainly all animals relevant to the conversation at hand possess sentience to a certain degree. Or rather, I should say, there isn't reasonable evidence to assume otherwise.

Just because an animal can't verbally say "Don't do that" doesn't mean that's not their view. Most will of course make noise or flinch when pain is inflicted. Clearly, they recognize the pain if nothing else.

Corwin

Sentience is generally defined as 'having human level intelligence.' (Note, this does not mean human TYPE intelligence. Amplify a dog's IQ to where it can understand calculus and it will still think like a dog.)

How's this spin? The moral imperative of any lifeform is to survive. No animal products in your diet? You die. Simple.

If you don't see that as being important possibly you'd like to volunteer to off yourself and make more room for other animals?

Corwin

And hell *I* yelp when I get a needle stuck in me. All that proves is that the experience is somewhat unpleasant. Says nothing at all about my motivations. (I loathe teatnus shots.... but if I need one, I'll put up with the pain.)

Bokonon

<strong>Sentience is generally defined as 'having human level intelligence.' (Note, this does not mean human TYPE intelligence. Amplify a dog's IQ to where it can understand calculus and it will still think like a dog.)</strong>

I've never heard of that as being the definition of sentience. Sentience has nothing to do with "human level intelligence" but rather has everything to do with awareness of existence.

<strong>How's this spin? The moral imperative of any lifeform is to survive. No animal products in your diet? You die. Simple.</strong>

I know this wasn't directed to me, but I feel the need to respond. Animal products are not necessary (and if fact far too often hurt) in one's diet to live healthy. I'm afraid your sorely mistaken.

<strong>If you don't see that as being important possibly you'd like to volunteer to off yourself and make more room for other animals?</strong>

To what are you referring to?

Bokonon

Yes, it proves you feel pain. I don't understand what you're trying to prove here. Being slaughtered for food certainly IS NOT necessary.