Wyz_sub10

I agree, but I wouldn't underestimate the difficulty that *some* children would have in understanding or accepting this. (for some young kids, even dad with a new beard is pretty damn scary)

Proceed with caution, but definitely proceed.

Amen-Moses

Depends on the resoning behind it, if it is for cosmetic scarring then I have no problem with it, if it is for masochistic pleasure likewise but if it is due to mental problems (i.e lack of self worth or suicidal tendencies connected with clinical depression) then I would hope that they can get help.

Amen-Moses

tronvillain

I see no reason that children should be prevented from interacting with someone who has had such an operation, at least not any more than they should be prevented from interacting with anyone else. As for explaining it to children, I am not sure they would have such a big problem with it.

Lord Asriel
I suspect that the two are one and the same: someone with the "delusion" of being born the wrong gender is the victim of a "mistake of nature." They have a brain that is the wrong sex for their body, probably as a result of a developmental quirk.

Monkeybot

I agree - I think it depends on the kids in question. I certainly don't have a problem with transgendered individuals (or the concept) at all. At the same time, I recall some of the reactions I got from children in Japan (as one of the first or only white people they had ever seen); the reactions ranged from fascination to indifference to outright terror. I am not joking on the last one either -- several (non-Asian) friends of mine also had the unhappy experience of waving at a small child only to have them burst into tears.

While I'm certainly not qualified to make any general statements on child psychology, my experiences tell me that it's prudent to introduce the concept very carefully. Kids are robust and I think ultimately they can handle it; but I think it's also important to, as Wyz says, to proceed with caution.

All the same, I emphatically do not support the idea of barring the child from his grandfather completely.

jaz

Not necessarily. My emotional response to gay men is "That's icky", yet I have gay male friends. And if I were to have children I would allow gay men near my children. In some cases it would be that simple, but certainly not all.

I see it very differently to this. A sex change isn't simply a cosmetic change. It's a major lifestyle change. It's changing a fundamental part of who you are. My colour of my hair isn't a fundamental part of who I am. My sex is.

I fully agree with the woman in question. If it was my father and my children, he wouldn't be allowed near them. I don't think that nature does make those sorts of mistakes. Just because someone thinks something or feels something, doesn't make it true. If they wish to have a sex change that is their business, and I fully support them having that right. I however have the right not to associate with them, and not to allow any children under my care to associate with them.

I do think that anyone undergoing a sex change operation requires psychariatic help. Obviously there is something wrong there. They think it's the body, my take on it is that it's the mind. And while that usually wouldn't automatically be grounds for removing someone from my life, if they downright refuse to get any help, I think that it's something that has to be considered.

It would also be very difficult to keep the grandfather in the kids life and make it clear that you don't endorse what they did, because it's not simply an action you're not endorsing, to a child, it would be the grandparent you're not endorsing. Very tricky. In my mind, they would never be grandma or mum. They'd be poppy and dad, and I wouldn't lie about it. That would obviously cause a fair bit of tension, and the kids would be affected by that.

On top of that, I'm not quite sure how you would explain to the kids that Poppy is now Grandma. While getting the operation itself takes time, the grandfather in this case went from behaving as a man to behaving as a woman almost over night. They couldn't be gradually introduced to the idea.

The Other Michael

Hello jaz,

How do you reconcile that with all the mistakes that nature does make? And if those mistakes are natural, why not the gender mixup?

Does being transgendered automagically turn the person from being 'dear old Grandad' into a slavering monster who will now delight in causing harm to the grandkids that were doted on before the medical procedure?

And if not, then why would you inflict harm on both the grandparent and the grandchildren by forcibly separating them?

cheers,
Michael

lisarea

I was friends with a pre-op transsexual when I was younger, and I can't say that this is universal, but she could not get her final sex change surgery without extensive therapy and without living as a woman for at least one year continuously. She actually got sick and had to go off her hormones for several months, during which time she grew back her body hair and such, and had to start that year all over again once she was better.

I agree with you that the whole idea freaks me out. I can't conceive of changing something so fundamental as my sex. But the whole idea of tolerance includes accepting others, whether you understand them or not.

At three or four, children are still forming their ideas about the world, and they can take something like this in stride, really. Besides, the sex change would likely make little change in their perceptions of grandma/grandpa, because, by the time of the surgery, the grandma switch would have probably been well in place. Unless they regularly view their grandparents' genitals, there should be little if any difference to them.

It's always been very important to me to expose my son to a wide range of people and things, and let him get used to the idea that everyone is different, and their decisions make them no less human, or deserving of respect and consideration.

A disturbing number of gay teenagers end up committing suicide because they feel like freaks. I expect these numbers would be so much smaller if we didn't raise our children with such a xenophobic perspective, 'protecting' them from things that challenge our own assumptions and preferences. The fact of the matter is, regardless of how you see transgender issues, they happen. Better to deal with the social issues surrounding this while they're young and raise them with the idea that people are different, and that's OK. They'll be better prepared to deal with whatever adolescence hands them if they know that whatever it is, they're still human beings.

jaz

Hello Michael,

Can you give me some examples about other mistakes, similiar to this one, that nature makes?

I don't think that the operation turns someone from "dear old grandpa" to a slavering monster out to harm the kids at all. That is not the reason I wouldn't allow them near my kids.

Just because someone doesn't intend to hurt doesn't mean they won't. If someone runs over your foot, it hurts. Whether or not they meant to run over your foot doesn't come into that. The same goes here.

Jamie_L

We're anthropomorphizing here. Nature NEVER makes mistakes, because the term "mistake" implies intent. We are all just big piles of sub-atomic particles that happen to be conscious and happen to have the tools to monkey with all the other lumps of particles out there, including ourselves. This is not about humanity's wisdom. This is purely about an individual wanting to do something to their body, it's chemical balance. Yes, it strikes at identity, but again, their choice, not mine.

Why? Do you fear a negative impact on the children? If so, what?

If they think, "I feel like a woman," then that does make it true, because it's a completely internal thing. The reality of their biology does not change the way the fell. How they feel is the TRUTH of how they feel.

Of course you do. No one's arguing that. Again, however, I am curious about what you fear for the children. Moreover, why would YOU stop associating with such a person? What impact does it have on you that makes you wish to distance yourself?

Of course its the mind. For some reason, their mind has decided it would be happier in a body of the opposite gender. That IS abnormal. But why is that wrong? Are you talking morally wrong? I can't see how a decision that impacts only the individual is morally wrong. One could say it is good to help these people avoid spending lots of money on an operation that could be unnecessary if their psychological condition was changed. But if they have the money and it harms neither their situation or anyone else's, why should we try to stop them?

Agreed. But does that difficulty warrant the difficulty of robbing a child of a family member?

Jamie

babelfish

1. Siamese twins
2. Two-headed calves
3. Cleft lips and palates
4. Club feet
5. Anencephalics
6. Juvenile Diabetes
7. Klinefelter Syndrome

Do you want any more?