excreationist

So theist, does this mean that God's views on morality never change? Or are his judgements just "absolute" at that particular point in time?

Koyaanisqatsi

Well, Bill, if that is the case, then there is no compelling reason to believe in or even "follow" Jesus.

Why then, do christians (and Jesus, I should add) proclaim that you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven except through Jesus?

David Gould

A theist not atheist,

Okay, so you are saying that as we cannot agree on what is just or unjust or what is good and non-good, my two situations cannot be applied?

I think you are wrong here.

Could it be just for a human to have another human tortured for ever (note: it may become possible in the future for us to extend life indefinitely) for any crime? (note: I have specifically said 'human'. At this stage, I do not care if it is unjust or not if God does it)

If you answer 'no, it could never be just', then you have given a human definition of the word just. You can then simply say God does not fit that definition - he has another definition of the word just. But who cares?

If he is a being that does not fit our definition of just, then how do you as a Christian know that he will not be unjust (by the human definition you yourself have established) to you?

And if you say that yes, it can be just for a human to torture another human indefinitely then what ability then do humans have to decide what is moral and what is not?

It is irrelevant what definition God has for himself. If he does not fit our human definition of just, then you cannot trust his 'justice'.

David Gould

Koy,

I agree. I haven't heard the orthodoxy that Bill has presented before. (Although I have thought it possibly to be an interpretation of the Bible).

However, I think that if you accept either of my assertions, there is no point in believing in God. And I do not think you can deny both of them - one must be true. Either God is just and good according to our definition or he is not. There is no (as far as I can tell) in between.

xoc

Well I guess my hope to avoid the next point will not be satisfied.

Man sins against finite man, he commits a finite sin and so the finite punishment is fair(even if it is 10-fold or 7-fold for his crime).

Man sins against an eternal, infinite God, it is possible for the sin to be rendered as eternal and the punishment follows in that fashion. Besides, the sinner is unlikely to stop sinning in torment and will continue to curse God.

Mt12:31-32

Koy:
First, Catholocism does teach that a man cannot know if he is saved or not but Protestant traditions have had different opinions on that.

"We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the breathren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death."
(John 3:14)
"Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit." (John 4:13)
"These things I have written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."
(John 5:13)

"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."
(Romans8:9)

The Holy Spirit is the seal of salvation. But it is possible for a person to think he's saved when he's not; and that is why he should "examine himself to see if he is in the faith."

David Gould

A theist not atheist,

you wrote: "Man sins against an eternal, infinite God, it is possible for the sin to be rendered as eternal and the punishment follows in that fashion. Besides, the sinner is unlikely to stop sinning in torment and will continue to curse God."

And I wonder why! So God has created a place where the sinner will keep sinning and this helps justify eternal punishment when it is the punishment that is creating the crime!

THAT DOES NOT FIT THE HUMAN DEFINITION OF JUSTICE!

With regard to your first point, how does the size of God increase the size of my crime? That is like arguing that if I stole $100 off a poor person I would be committing less of a crime than if I stole $100 off a rich person - a ludicrous argument.

The fact that God is infinite means any crime that I commmit against him would have no impact at all. His size and majesty does not increase the damage I do to him - relatively, it decreases it. If he was finite, I could hurt him more in percentage terms.

As you have clearly demonstrated that God does not fit the human definition of just, you should be very afraid of him. As an atheist, I do not believe that he exists so I can live my life without such fear. You, however, believe that God exists and that God is unjust (by the human definition). You should be terrified.

[ December 13, 2001: Message edited by: David Gould ]</p>

Koyaanisqatsi

A_theist--

I'm sorry, but I fail to see how any of those quotes contradict (or even elucidate) my question. Since salvation and entrance into heaven is granted solely at god's discretion (and god does not play favorites and your works and deeds and actions, etc., will not effect god in any fashion), there is no particular need to believe in or "follow" Jesus.

In this regard, David is correct. There is no qualitative difference--from a "salvation/entering the kingdom" perspective--between the believer and the non-believer.

xoc

I should have said infinite "Majesty" rather than size. For example, that young girl that recently slapped Prince Charles in the face with a rose could face 15 years in prison(probably won't though). There is a difference between crimes against individuals and crimes against the state, and crimes against royalty. Chosing against God is rebellion and this is the seperating point of man against the ultimately "Majestic" Holy One.
The offence is against the Personage of God, the Majesty and Glory rather than against His person. Of course man is tied up in the crime of the crucifixion of GOd's Son. Sin is rebellion against the Kingdom of God and God's right to rule, and is displayed by man in a kind of Deiicide. Since man refuses God's rule, they would certainly rather have that "God is dead." (FN) and would kill Him by philosophy or any other means if possible. The treatment of Jesus is the judgment of the sinful man against God.
God is a God of covenents, and a Promise-keeper of the highest degree. "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace through our Lord Jesus Christ." (Rom 5:1) The Holy Spirit has a gift of "assurance."

David Gould

A theist not atheist,

I notice you did not respond to my criticism of the partial justification you used for infinite punishment in that man could not help but curse God's name while being tortured. May I assume that you concede that point?

Anyway, on to the next part.

Another ridiculous argument - majesty, soverienty, statehood, et cetera.

Is the crime of treason against the government of Tonga lesser or greater then the crime of treason against the government of the United States? The United States has more power and more majesty than Tonga and yet the crime is identical.

God is more majestic than the United States of America. Why is it just for him to suddenly increase the punishment for treason to infinite torture?

If your answer is simply 'because he is God' then that will not do. Remember, we are looking to see if God is just under the human definition of the word, not under his own definition.

With regard to your last point, did God ever lie to a believer in the Bible? I suggest you read it carefully to find out.

Of course, as God cannot lie, you can just redefine the word 'lie' to mean 'something that God cannot do'. Simple, hey?

CodeMason

15 years? Crumbs, looks like my rose slapping days are over.