Freethought & Rationalism Archive

elusive sky · 06-28-2002, 07:36 AM

Does anyone have any lists or links to the history of Christian atrocities? Something more detailed than usual "Inquistitions, Crusades and Witchhunts" which we associate with Christianity. For example the brutal murder of the first great female mathematician, Hypatia. Or recently I found that the first justification/excuse given for African slavery was for the Christian salvation of their sould. Some of the first slaves taken from Africa by the Portuegeuse were given to the Pope who blessed further adventures and gave forgiveness of all transgressions against Africans. The widespread myth of African cannibilism was perpetuated as a justification for enslavement, for the purposes of saving them from themselves, etc.

If anyone has some detailed sources of the mischeivious history of Christianity, I'd be thankful.

case · 06-28-2002, 09:14 PM

The Dark Side of Christian History, by Helen Ellerbe, makes a nice spring board for atrocities committed by the Church through history. You are bound to discover though that by and large, many attrocities committed by Christians are not well documented, strictly because they were the ones doing the documenting. All we have are bits and pieces. But they are out there.

kdouthit · 06-28-2002, 09:57 PM

I have these 2 links..

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5195/victims.html" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5195/victims.html</a>

<a href="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty.html" target="_blank">http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty.html</a>

06-29-2002, 12:14 AM

elusive sky,

Rather than look for atheist and anti-Christian polemic with the usual massively inflated figures, lack of context and the assumption that all non-Christians were saints, why not just pick up a modern mainstream history book?

On the Inquisition the standard work is Edward Peters "Inquisition!" which traces the development of the institution and the myth (you are probably more interested in the later). On witches, this <a href="http://www.uscolo.edu/natrel/pom/old/POM5a1.html" target="_blank">article</a> by a neo-pagan contains a good overview and references. On the crusades the standard remains Runciman although there are plenty of reservations about his spin on events. Basically, the crusades have been downgraded to just another medieval war. If you want real nastiness then you should check out the Mongols.

The Barabarian Conversion by Richard Fletcher is not the greatest read but covers the way Christianity spread in Europe. Forced conversions were not really possible or desired but you will find some material with good propaganda value on the Teutonic knights and northern crusades.

Ultimately, of course, the 'evil of Christianity' is just daft. It is a eurocentric point of view, depends on castigating everyone who isn't a twentieth century liberal (who only exist because of Christianity), and demands you ignore the rest of the human race who were not exactly covering themselves with glory either.

If you want to say Christianity was responcible for atrocities fine. But you are going to have to accept that every other system is as well which doesn't get us very far. Just ask Palestinians what they think of Western liberalism.

Yours

Bede

<a href="http://www.bede.org.uk" target="_blank">Bede's Library - faith and reason</a>

Daydreamer · 06-30-2002, 01:21 AM

Quote:

elusive sky,

Elusive sky ... sounds like a piece of cheesy poetry.

Quote:

Rather than look for atheist and anti-Christian polemic with the usual massively inflated figures, lack of context and the assumption that all non-Christians were saints, why not just pick up a modern mainstream history book?

Parody the Parrot says:

Rather than making an unjustified slam against atheists for only looking to 'atheist and anti-Christian polemic with the usual massively inflated figures, [and] lack of context' and the assumption that atheists assume non-Christians were saints, why not ask what their motive is?

There is a chance, however slight, he just may have been looking for material wherein Christians perpetrated atrocities, looking for any sort of possible causative connection, instead of leaping onto the religion --> violence bandwagon.

Quote:

On the Inquisition the standard work is Edward Peters "Inquisition!" which traces the development of the institution and the myth (you are probably more interested in the later). On witches, this <a href="http://www.uscolo.edu/natrel/pom/old/POM5a1.html" target="_blank">article</a> by a neo-pagan contains a good overview and references. On the crusades the standard remains Runciman although there are plenty of reservations about his spin on events. Basically, the crusades have been downgraded to just another medieval war. If you want real nastiness then you should check out the Mongols.

Thank you for providing an alternate and probably contrasting source, it is noted. It is more than many I know, some on both sides of the god fence, would do in this situation.

Quote:

The Barabarian Conversion by Richard Fletcher is not the greatest read but covers the way Christianity spread in Europe. Forced conversions were not really possible or desired but you will find some material with good propaganda value on the Teutonic knights and northern crusades.

This I shall check out myself, as I have a bit of an intrest in the spread of various memes, particularly Christianity.

Quote:

Ultimately, of course, the 'evil of Christianity' is just daft. It is a eurocentric point of view, depends on castigating everyone who isn't a twentieth century liberal

No more than the 'evil of mankind' - they both depend on some sort of scheme for qualifiying 'evil', and both involve holding the subject up to an impossible standard.

Quote:

(who only exist because of Christianity)

Ah! An interesting point. The question this fails to answer, however, is whether Christianity was an accidental catalyst or a divine tool.

Quote:

, and demands you ignore the rest of the human race who were not exactly covering themselves with glory either.

If you want to say Christianity was responcible for atrocities fine.

It is, but so are Despotic Communism, Captialism, and Islam, to name a few. There are few clean hands in this world.

Quote:

But you are going to have to accept that every other system is as well which doesn't get us very far. Just ask Palestinians what they think of Western liberalism.

I agree.

elusive sky · 06-30-2002, 04:07 AM

I wasn't looking for dialouge but some history, facts, numbers, names, etc. The problem is that Christianity has a notorious habit of destroying, altering, fabricting or selectively recording history to their favor.And to the disfavor of untold numbers of people. I happen to believe that getting the facts and telling them is important. True history is important. I'll let you get back to Philosphy 101.

06-30-2002, 12:53 PM

elusive sky,

What would you like to know? Ask a few (but not too many!) questions, and I'll see what I can do.

Yours

Bede

sighhswolf · 06-30-2002, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by elusive sky:
<strong>I wasn't looking for dialouge but some history, facts, numbers, names, etc. The problem is that Christianity has a notorious habit of destroying, altering, fabricting or selectively recording history to their favor.And to the disfavor of untold numbers of people. I happen to believe that getting the facts and telling them is important. True history is important. I'll let you get back to Philosphy 101.</strong>

Where did this idea originate? Christians have never engaged in atrocities against their fellow man.
You fail to take into account the fact that if there were these terrible things happening to
mankind, and they were injured or hurt in some way by Christians, it was because god had Judged them to be worthy of his wrath, and he instructed his followers to carry out his vengence.
So the idea of atrocities visited upon heathens by christians is absurd.
Dont waste valuable time trying to find information on something that according to the christian mind does not exist.
Wolf

Anunnaki · 06-30-2002, 02:21 PM

Here`s a decent site about early <a href="http://essenes.crosswinds.net/m23.htm" target="_blank">Christian atrocities.</a>

If you scroll down to the bottom of this page you`ll get a surprise bonus of watching sneaky Bede in action.
Bede,going by the name "James H.",challenges the author by bringing up his own (Bede`s) apologetic website,but never lets on that he *is* Bede.

You`ll see what I mean. It`s quite amusing and Bede ends up losing the debate regardless of his trickery.

Marduk · 06-30-2002, 03:28 PM

The burning, by Monks, of almost the entire written output of the Mayan Civillization comes to mind. Not to mention what the Spanish did to the Aztecs & Incas and anyone else they found in the "New World".
OK, maybe the latter was due more to the "let's conquer everything we find" mode of Europeans of the time moreso than religion, but the former was strictly for religious reasons.

06-28-2002, 07:36 AM	#1
elusive sky Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ~ Posts: 8	Christian Atrocities Does anyone have any lists or links to the history of Christian atrocities? Something more detailed than usual "Inquistitions, Crusades and Witchhunts" which we associate with Christianity. For example the brutal murder of the first great female mathematician, Hypatia. Or recently I found that the first justification/excuse given for African slavery was for the Christian salvation of their sould. Some of the first slaves taken from Africa by the Portuegeuse were given to the Pope who blessed further adventures and gave forgiveness of all transgressions against Africans. The widespread myth of African cannibilism was perpetuated as a justification for enslavement, for the purposes of saving them from themselves, etc. If anyone has some detailed sources of the mischeivious history of Christianity, I'd be thankful.

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06-28-2002, 09:14 PM	#2
case Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Missouri Posts: 420	The Dark Side of Christian History, by Helen Ellerbe, makes a nice spring board for atrocities committed by the Church through history. You are bound to discover though that by and large, many attrocities committed by Christians are not well documented, strictly because they were the ones doing the documenting. All we have are bits and pieces. But they are out there.

06-28-2002, 09:57 PM	#3
kdouthit Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 31	I have these 2 links.. <a href="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5195/victims.html" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5195/victims.html</a> <a href="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty.html" target="_blank">http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty.html</a>

06-29-2002, 12:14 AM	#4
Bede Guest Posts: n/a	elusive sky, Rather than look for atheist and anti-Christian polemic with the usual massively inflated figures, lack of context and the assumption that all non-Christians were saints, why not just pick up a modern mainstream history book? On the Inquisition the standard work is Edward Peters "Inquisition!" which traces the development of the institution and the myth (you are probably more interested in the later). On witches, this <a href="http://www.uscolo.edu/natrel/pom/old/POM5a1.html" target="_blank">article</a> by a neo-pagan contains a good overview and references. On the crusades the standard remains Runciman although there are plenty of reservations about his spin on events. Basically, the crusades have been downgraded to just another medieval war. If you want real nastiness then you should check out the Mongols. The Barabarian Conversion by Richard Fletcher is not the greatest read but covers the way Christianity spread in Europe. Forced conversions were not really possible or desired but you will find some material with good propaganda value on the Teutonic knights and northern crusades. Ultimately, of course, the 'evil of Christianity' is just daft. It is a eurocentric point of view, depends on castigating everyone who isn't a twentieth century liberal (who only exist because of Christianity), and demands you ignore the rest of the human race who were not exactly covering themselves with glory either. If you want to say Christianity was responcible for atrocities fine. But you are going to have to accept that every other system is as well which doesn't get us very far. Just ask Palestinians what they think of Western liberalism. Yours Bede <a href="http://www.bede.org.uk" target="_blank">Bede's Library - faith and reason</a>

06-30-2002, 04:07 AM	#6
elusive sky Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ~ Posts: 8	I wasn't looking for dialouge but some history, facts, numbers, names, etc. The problem is that Christianity has a notorious habit of destroying, altering, fabricting or selectively recording history to their favor.And to the disfavor of untold numbers of people. I happen to believe that getting the facts and telling them is important. True history is important. I'll let you get back to Philosphy 101.

06-30-2002, 12:53 PM	#7
Bede Guest Posts: n/a	elusive sky, What would you like to know? Ask a few (but not too many!) questions, and I'll see what I can do. Yours Bede

06-30-2002, 02:21 PM	#9
Anunnaki Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: I`ve left and gone away Posts: 699	Here`s a decent site about early <a href="http://essenes.crosswinds.net/m23.htm" target="_blank">Christian atrocities.</a> If you scroll down to the bottom of this page you`ll get a surprise bonus of watching sneaky Bede in action. Bede,going by the name "James H.",challenges the author by bringing up his own (Bede`s) apologetic website,but never lets on that he is Bede. You`ll see what I mean. It`s quite amusing and Bede ends up losing the debate regardless of his trickery.

06-30-2002, 03:28 PM	#10
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	The burning, by Monks, of almost the entire written output of the Mayan Civillization comes to mind. Not to mention what the Spanish did to the Aztecs & Incas and anyone else they found in the "New World". OK, maybe the latter was due more to the "let's conquer everything we find" mode of Europeans of the time moreso than religion, but the former was strictly for religious reasons.

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