Proctors_Gambit

I've got the pilate project.
It's my most powerful tool it dealing with Christians.
For the simple reason that it has a searchable KJV included.

Need to find a quote... a quick search for "Chariots of Iron", "She Bears" or one of the other favourites and *Bingo*, you got yourself some heavy ammunition.

In the meantime they reply with : I know that must be out of context, because God {Is all loving / Is all powerful} and if I had my bible here I'd prove it.

To be able to quickly argue with the source material that they hold sacred is a very powerful thing.

-gambit

Rational BAC

I have found that many atheists are quite knowledgable about the Bible-----(just as knowledgable as many fundies.)

I am glad somebody is reading the whole damned thing.

Like a previous poster said pretty much-------I just consider the OT as a vague historical reference for the NT. I ignore a whole lot of what St Paul wrote. I pay quite a bit of attention to what Jesus is purported to have said-----still allowing for human error there also.

And I have no problem with any irregularities, immoralities, falsehoods and absurdities that a consciencious Bible reading atheist may find there. ----------Easy to do as a Christian if you consider the Bible man written, man inspired and full of a whole bunch of hokum.-----------as I do.

So have at it --as many atheists who choose to---Read the Bible to your heart's content (or possibly discontent) so you can thrash it out with all the fundies who also read all of the Bible.

Personally I'd rather watch a good football game.

Abacus

It's my gut feeling that if every Christian were to tomorrow start reading the Bible in its entirety then soon thereafter the number of non-believers would skyrocket.

Rational BAC

Fundamentalist Christians who read the whole Bible might have their faith shaken.-------- But, then again, the way the fundies can twist things around to make black seem like white in their own minds----maybe not.

Mainstream Christianity (cherry pickers) would not be bothered in their faith at all. (except for the sheer boredom of actually doing that---------parts of the Bible would put anyone to sleep)

Proctors_Gambit

I think that many Christians that do read the bible probably do so quickly and with a very small amount of concentration.
Then they can hold their head high and say "Yes, I've read the bible".
Most of them however will balk when asked even relatively simple questions or presented with simple problems.
I have peers who having read the bible would stare back at me puzzled if I asked them what Malachi was about, but can give timelines ancestry and insight into any character from the LOTR Trilogy.

Christians may read the bible, but it will change nothing.
Unless you read it with an attempt to be objective, it's just a matter of skimming it until you see something you like.

As an ex-xian, I remember flicking through the bible, skipping over the stuff I didn't understand or that seemed strange or wrong until I would find something that I could twist to apply to my life and then thank God for his guidance in his word.

It's scary looking back at just how ignorant you can be.

-Gambit

Rational BAC

You had it right the first time Proctors.

Skimming the Bible looking for cherries is the best way to read it.

Call it ignorance if you like. I call it common sense. There is such a thing as wasting your time doing something unimportant.

Reading the whole damned Bible and trying to make sense of the whole thing----------is a serious waste of time and energy.

Celsus

Perhaps I missed this, but exactly how do you determine whether something is a cherry or a pit?
On the contrary, reading the whole damn Bible is fascinating and takes you into a world that people still don't really know about. There are layers within layers, there are social commentaries that shed light on the issues of their day, there are moral fables, etiological and epistemological myths, and so on. Or to coopt a saying, it's the stuff of legends.

Joel

Sabine Grant

It is my understanding that Bible practising Christians study scriptures on a daily basis... in other words, they consider scriptures to be " daily food" not one huge meal absorbed over several days of reading and digested all at one time.
It is used as a tool of reflection on the content. Also as a tool to facilitate prayer time.
I think that Bible educated non theists who challenge the beliefs of christians are a necessity to the whole process of reflection christians ought to have. Granted those challenges are presented in a way which remains constructive rather than a characterization of all believers.

Scriptures IMO are mostly subject to personal interpretation and it is important for any dialogue to be constructive and edifying to respect that reality.

Any approach such as " you people believe this or that " can result in a monologue on the part of the challenger.
If Bible educated non theists truly wish to promote rational thinking in a theist, the effort must be made first to ask what this biblical christian understands from particular scriptures .

The attribution of thoughts to an individual based on what the majority believes or does not believe cannot promote a dialogue.

At least as a christian this is how I can value non theistic arguments and grow from a verbal encounter.

As a NT christian for example, I focus my daily food intake on the teachings of Christ because they are relevent to provide me with tools in terms of behavior for the day. I look for what I can practicaly apply in my daily life.

Rational BAC

Celsus--------

How do I determine a cherry? Easy enough----call it a gut feeling if you like. Call it my own personal sense of right and wrong----of what seems to me to be valid and what seems bogus.

And, as one of those who feels he has a personal relationship with Jesus---------I believe He is guiding me in my cherry picking and my personal choices.

I understand that I can seriously irritate both non-theists and fundies with how I take the Bible. But it is my choice ----and that choice is quite defendable, in my opinion.------------as long as everyone accepts even the possible validity of my position that----------- the Bible is errant, was inspired by Man, and written down by Man. That God, in all His infinite wisdom and for Lord knows what reasons, decided to let Man figure out what happened 2000 years ago all by his lonesome.

I can understand your feeling about the Bible. Many people feel that way.---------- I have known fundies who would prefer spending all day long reading the Bible in all its parts and trying to understand it as the divine word of God. I assume you, even as a non-theist, still find the Bible very complex with all its layers and enjoy reading the whole thing (or at least find it challenging). I do not find such a challenge particularly interesting or very enjoyable. But then again, I don't care much for Shakespeare either.

As said before--I would much rather watch a good football game----

-----than to read and try to analyse every word, every verse in the Bible. --seems like I can find a better use (or at least a more entertaining use of my time,) myself.

But to each his own. If you enjoy reading the whole Bible with all its errancy---then do that.

And I will continue to cherry pick the Bible and then make what I think to be a better use of my time.

How long till football season starts anyway? I need some real meaning in my life.

Celsus

You don't irritate me at all. What I see is simply circular reasoning. You rely on Jesus to guide you, whom you've probably got your knowledge of from the Bible. So the Jesus whom you've cherry-picked from the Bible assists you in cherry-picking further. If you want to claim any semblance of rationality (which I presume you would from your nick), you need to escape this circular loop.

You may use personal experience as an escape, but that is unsatisfactory in trying to convince anyone else of your views. Nor is it, ultimately, a real escape, because experiences are subjective and not independently verifiable nor are they able to provide an objective stance with regards to the Bible. You may as well be an agnostic.

Joel