happyboy

ANY religion, if twisted slightly, can be used to justify the most horrific of crimes. even a religion like buddhism can be used in this manner.

happyboy, eager for the day religion disappears

Answerer

There is a only thin line between killing for passion (or one own desire) and killing for selfless justice(or compassion). The distinction between these two types are so confusing and distorting at times that I will prefer anyone to subtain from killing lest more false views and sufferings are spread around.

happyboy

you're missing my point, answerer. religion is dangerous because it can be twisted to easily, even a religion as pacifistic as buddhism. religion is dangerous.

happyboy

monkey mind

As far as I know Zen's roots in China and India didn't involve any ideas of a warriors code. It seems that Zen became a religion for warriors only in Japan. Of course, in a feudal country warriors are needed and those warriors need a religion that suits their needs.

I think of religion as, above all, a tool. At a personal level it can be a tool for self improvement. At the level of the whole society it can be a tool for manipulating public behaviour for good or (unfortunately) evil. I think it is precisely because religion is open to interpretation that it is useful.

The question is, would the Japanese have done what they did without Zen? Would people still fight without God? I think so. I think religion is a tool in war. Just like science. When a country wants to fight they need technology (which comes from science) and the belief that they will win (which comes from religion). Without those they won't have a succesful war. I believe the reason why people fight is more likely to be politics, money or land disputes than clashes over any ideology.

Seraphim

By Happyboy

ANY religion, if twisted slightly, can be used to justify the most horrific of crimes. even a religion like buddhism can be used in this manner.

happyboy, eager for the day religion disappears

My reply : If you think the fighting and killing will stop if there is no religion, that's your disillusion and your choice to believe.

I blame the human nature which twist ALL that it touches to promote its own justification, not Religion

By Answerer

There is a only thin line between killing for passion (or one own desire) and killing for selfless justice(or compassion). The distinction between these two types are so confusing and distorting at times that I will prefer anyone to subtain from killing lest more false views and sufferings are spread around.

My reply : You don't like killing and suffering, Answerer? Too bad ... because as long as you exist as a human, you do kill and you make others (and yourself) suffer. One example is human's diet where they kill and eat meat. That is killing and making other creatures suffer as well. Another example is your basic "I want to be the BEST" crap where you fight and try to move forward (by hook or crook) ahead of others.


By monkey mind

As far as I know Zen's roots in China and India didn't involve any ideas of a warriors code. It seems that Zen became a religion for warriors only in Japan. Of course, in a feudal country warriors are needed and those warriors need a religion that suits their needs.

My reply : Not true. Most of the Eastern society have distinction or varies status in a society where a person in a certain status will perform only one duty. In India, it is known as Caste system which comprised of 4 group based on 4 individual characteristics (which is now become one of the major problems in India due to Ego). In China, such system existed as well - putting scholars (instead of Monks like in India) as the person at the top. Monks in China usually considered to be a neutral part.

The question is, would the Japanese have done what they did without Zen? Would people still fight without God? I think so. I think religion is a tool in war. Just like science. When a country wants to fight they need technology (which comes from science) and the belief that they will win (which comes from religion). Without those they won't have a succesful war. I believe the reason why people fight is more likely to be politics, money or land disputes than clashes over any ideology.

My reply : Agreed. Humans fight because they want to fight, not because God promoting them to fight (maybe except in Islam but then again, Islam is more like a cult of doom rather than a religion).

happyboy

the problem is, monkey mind, zen buddhism, like all forms of buddism, like all religions period, are the invention of men and women, not divine beings, or divine inspiration, or what have you. we cooked them up, we wrote all the "divinely inspired passages", we invented all the so-called "cosmic insight." it's all a load of bullshit.

if it makes people happy,then who am i to stand in the way? but if it becomes a tool of the government, the way all of the big five faiths have, then it's an abomination and needs to be swept away.

happyboy

happyboy

seraphim, i am not so naive that i think religion is the sole cause of the world's ills. but it IS a major source of suffering, delusion, and self-hate. religion, if done away with, won't end war, it won't end hunger, it won't strife....but it WILL end religiously-inspired war, hunger,and strife. every little bit helps.

happyboy

Seraphim

seraphim, i am not so naive that i think religion is the sole cause of the world's ills. but it IS a major source of suffering, delusion, and self-hate. religion, if done away with, won't end war, it won't end hunger, it won't strife....but it WILL end religiously-inspired war, hunger,and strife. every little bit helps.

happyboy

My reply : Really?

You said your are not naive enough to think that religion is the SOLE cause of world's ills, but naive enough to say it is a MAJOR source of suffering etc? What's the difference?

When Humanity stops fighting for one cause, simply because they cannot find any reason to justify killing in that cause, they will go and find some other cause to fight. It is human nature. In that context, human's suffering, delusion and self-hate is MAN-MADE, not religion made.

You may ask me how am I so sure about this point. The answer is simple - I live in a country where 3 major groups (and a dozen smaller ones) coexist with each other. It is our choice to hate or love (at least respect) one another here. Difference in religion is not important as long as we all keep our difference to ourselves and respect others.

Waning Moon Conrad

Zen is not the totality of Buddhism.

Ideology is dangerous. Any ideology, religious or otherwise can be twisted easily. Look at the damage done by communism.

Certainly a lot of religions have a lot to answer for but one should remember that it's not just religions that are hijacked.

Boro Nut

Well the truth will out they say. And to think all this time we blamed that nice Mr. Tojo.

Boro Nut