Ronin

But I can envisage there could be situations where I'd say hell is not being used as a threat to coerce people and you'd say it is.

That you don't find the very concept of eternal torment repugnant on its very face is disturbing because you seem to be such a caring person.

I don't accept Christ as my Lord and Savior ~ what does your religion indicate is my punishment?

There's appropriate and there's inappropriate coercion. That's what I'd say.

In your view ~ is threatening eternal torment for the simple act of non-belief appropriate coercion?

But you can't make a person believe something (short of Orwell's 1984-type abusive treatments or invasive treatments that would mess acutely with their brain)

I have to go take my dog Pavlov for a walk now.

HelenM

Please don't put words in my mouth.

If you want to know what I think about the doctrine of hell I wrote 15 pages about it on my website a year ago - <a href="http://members.directvinternet.com/%7Emildenhall/writings/hell.html" target="_blank">here</a>.

But - one can't ignore something just because it's 'repugnant' - the point is, is it true? And truth isn't determined by repugnancy or not. I would have thought you knew that. I doubt you go into dangerous areas of town (if you have any) just because you find the idea of them being dangerous, 'repugnant' so you decide to ignore that information

I'm not going to discuss this because I'm 99% sure I wouldn't be telling you anything you don't already know.

It's not 'threatened' by the Christians I hang with - that's what you seem to be missing. That's a mischaracterization of what goes on.

It's no more 'threatened' than it's a threat when your dentist advises you to brush your teeth so as not to get cavities (assuming he/she does).

You might say that cavities and hell are very different - I know that. But the point is that it's not a 'threat' when someone says to you "These are the consequences I believe may result from your behavior (or beliefs which lead to behavior). But you still have a choice to engage in it (or hold to them)"

But, I am not sure that your fixed opposition to Christianity will allow you to agree with anything I've said in this response...which means you are limited despite your criticism of people that limit themselves.

Enjoy!

take care
Helen

[ October 26, 2002: Message edited by: HelenM ]</p>

Ronin

If you want to know what I think about the doctrine of hell I wrote 15 pages about it on my website a year ago - here.

Wonderful link ~ it indicates that you are willing to accept that there is a need for a loving deity to establish a hell, but you are uncomfortable about committing yourself to being sure about accepting non-christians being consigned to that fate.

Despite your vascillations, the Christian holy writ clearly states:

John ~

3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

3:35
The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

I'm not going to discuss this because I'm 99% sure I wouldn't be telling you anything you don't already know.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, so please answer the question with brutal honesty.

It's not 'threatened' by the Christians I hang with - that's what you seem to be missing. That's a mischaracterization of what goes on.

Eternal tortuous damnation for non-belief is a basic tenet of Christianity and, therefore, coercive and threatening.

The threat does not vanish just because you are knitting WWJD babybibs with the ladies.

But, I am not sure that your fixed opposition to Christianity will allow you to agree with anything I've said in this response...which means you are limited despite your criticism of people that limit themselves.

I have addressed this false assertion of yours in at least two other threads.

The walk was very refreshing.

HelenM

Did I say that? I don't remember saying that. I will have to reread it

I would rather say that I'm willing to accept the truth. If that's the truth, then I accept it.

When I studied the hell passages I wasn't convinced they were intended to say what some claim that they say, today.

Yes, I am aware of what John's gospel says. Thanks for the quotes though.

I give you permission to 'put words in my mouth' in this case, since the question was not about me but about, as you put it, 'my religion'.

I can't add much to my most recent comments on whether it's threatening or not. Which had nothing to do with ladies knitting bibs. They had everything to do with whether it's 'threatening' to tell someone that you believe their way of life may lead to negative consequences for them. I don't see what's threatening about that unless you are holding the gun. Which is not the case, when Christians share their beliefs to others. Christians do not have the power to send anyone to hell and the ones I know do not claim to have it.

(I would avoid anyone who did claim to have it)

Seems like we're quits on being convinced by each other, then

I'm glad. I just went to Farmer's Market and although it is very overcast - in fact, partly because it is overcast because the colors are more saturated then - the fall colors are awesome this morning.

I live in a place with lots of huge old trees. It seems like the colors are especially beautiful this year. I don't know whether they really are - I do think that the weather patterns affect such things. But it might just be that I forgot how amazing they can be, at the height of fall.

Helen

[ October 26, 2002: Message edited by: HelenM ]</p>

Ronin

Did I say that? I don't remember saying that. I will have to reread it.

Please do ~ and keep in mind that I stated that it indicates as much.

Address the concept of love with hell directly and I will reassess my evaluation.

I would rather say that I'm willing to accept the truth. If that's the truth, then I accept it.

Well, it is not. Truth does not contradict itself.

The concept of a supernatural eternal place of torment is only the tool of an patriarchal authoritarian creed designed to manipulate the basic fear of otherwise loving, caring and compassionate humans.

When I studied the hell passages I wasn't convinced they were intended to say what some claim that they say, today.

Do you feel any different about them at this point in time?

Yes, I am aware of what John's gospel says. Thanks for the quotes though.

You are quite welcome ~ they were there all along.

I give you permission to 'put words in my mouth' in this case, since the question was not about me but about, as you put it, 'my religion'.

No. Say the words, HelenM ~ tell me what your loving God would do with me.

I can't add much to my most recent comments on whether it's threatening or not. Which had nothing to do with ladies knitting bibs. They had everything to do with whether it's 'threatening' to tell someone that you believe their way of life may lead to negative consequences for them. I don't see what's threatening about that unless you are holding the gun. Which is not the case, when Christians share their beliefs to others. Christians do not have the power to send anyone to hell and the ones I know do not claim to have it.

HelenM, it is not about having the power to really send someone to hell ~ it is about 'believing' that such a place exists and then using that pretext to fraudulently manipulate the human mind.

(I would avoid anyone who did claim to have it)

Great ~ have you met Jesus or Yahweh?

Seems like we're quits on being convinced by each other, then

Was there ever really any doubt?

I'm glad. I just went to Farmer's Market and although it is very overcast - in fact, partly because it is overcast because the colors are more saturated then - the fall colors are awesome this morning.

It has rained here for two nights straight and I have taken the opportunity to write some prose and fiction by candlelight. I will PM you and offer a little for your review.

[ October 28, 2002: Message edited by: Ronin ]</p>

Brother Daniel

HelenM:

I'm happy about the fact that you don't share the usual Christian view of hell. But your children will pick up (or will already have picked up) on the prevailing opinion about hell at your church, whatever it might happen to be. I hope you have made a point of telling your children (more than once) that whatever is said at church isn't necessarily right.

I'll say no more about hell, other than to congratulate you on how well you're handling the onslaught.

In comparing education to brainwashing, I think you said at one point (I hope I'm not misrepresenting you, and I apologize in advance if I am) that you're less concerned with what is taught than how it is taught. For the most part, I agree. (For example, if the high school biology texts that I have examined are any indication, I don't think that evolution as presented there will do any more for the development of critical thinking than 6-day creationism as it might be taught in a sunday school.)

But there are a few exceptions, a few specific things that can do a lot of damage if taught to kids. One of them I have already said that I will say no more about.

Another damaging thing is the way unbelievers are often portrayed. 1 John 5:10 (in most translations) accuses unbelievers of calling God a liar - apparently leaving no room for the simple fact that some people remain honestly unconvinced. Many Christians unfortunately follow the apostle's example here. Unbelievers are treated as if they are people who know deep down that Christianity is right, but perversely CHOOSE to turn away. With such a lack of empathy, John's teaching about love rings rather hollow to me. I'm not pointing the finger at you, or your church - I'm simply warning you about another thing to look out for, another pattern of toxic thinking (that I have observed in Christians) from which I urge you to try to protect your children.

Having said that, I have the feeling that a similar lack of empathy often applies in the opposite direction. But that's another matter.
Peace to you.

HelenM

I feel the same way about how evolution was taught to me at high school

My husband is an atheist and I think my children's ideas about what atheists are like will be more influenced by what they think of him than what anyone tells them.

Thanks for your comments; I've responded to all I can respond to, at present.

Ronin, I will read anything you send me, with interest

take care
Helen

[ October 28, 2002: Message edited by: HelenM ]</p>

GeoTheo

First of all what is with the pretensious italics?
Second of all how do you know what is true and what is false? How can somthing that can only be accepted by faith be proven to be false? Hell is taught because it is believed to be true. People have a right to teach their children their religious beliefs. You would probabbly teach your kids that you believe there is no God. That would make death very scary to many people because it would make it extremely final. But you would not think it was cruel because you would just think that was the way it is and kids need to know.
But the fact is you have no way of knowing that death entials inihilation. You just believe it to be so.

Ronin

First of all what is with the pretensious italics?

I'm growling at you ~ woof, woof

Second of all how do you know what is true and what is false?

By examination of claims, scrutiny and using the very same critical thinking skills that allow you to survive in reality without walking in front of a moving train.

How can somthing that can only be accepted by faith be proven to be false?

Reality is something that doesn't go away simply because you don't 'believe' in it.

'Faith' cannot be proven to be false as it is the belief in something without proof.

However, supernatural claims can be shown to be false.

Christianity, along with other myths and fables, can be shown to be firmly based on the supernatural ~ and therefore, false.

Hell is taught because it is believed to be true.

That you 'believe' the concept of Hell is true is a shame, that someone teaches you that a loving 'father' could create such a place is repugnant and that you accept that eternal torture for the simple act of non-belief is acceptable is exactly why I refute the horrendous tenets of the fairy tale that is Chrisitianity.

People have a right to teach their children their religious beliefs.

I have never said otherwise. You may teach anything you want ~ just as I may refute it in a public forum.

You would probabbly teach your kids that you believe there is no God.

I would ask them to examine the evidence of all myths, legends and supernatural claims equally.

That would make death very scary to many people because it would make it extremely final.

A fear of death must be faced directly while living an honest life.

Supernatural claims merely make a mockery of the fullness of a compassionate life well-lived.

But you would not think it was cruel because you would just think that was the way it is and kids need to know.

Kids need to know what is true and real. They do not need fairy godmothers presented as actual entities.

I do not expect they believe that 'Hercules' is a real person or that 'Zeus' is a god.

But, perhaps, you would teach your children it was so ~ just to numb them from your perpective on 'finalities'.

Imagination is grand and entertaining, but it does not hold an explanation of the beauty of the universe.

If you wish to discuss prose and fiction, then I will be happy to share with you some of my work.

But the fact is you have no way of knowing that death entials inihilation. You just believe it to be so.

I am not concerned about death.

Pretending that there is a fairy tale that explains it is completely nonsensical and limits the sincerity of life as it is lived.

[ October 28, 2002: Message edited by: Ronin ]

[ October 29, 2002: Message edited by: Ronin ]</p>