Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Hubzilla · 02-28-2002, 05:22 PM

I'm having a debate with a theist. Basically, he states that God directed the beginning:

"I believe in evolution, or genetic mutation to be more exact. I believe in the big bang and expanding universe theories as well. But where the logic stops is how the matter and energy that make up our universe got to be.

Our universe is linear, meaning it, and everything contained in it had a beginning, and will eventually be exhausted. What I find impossible to believe, that knowing the laws of our universe how this inanimate matter just came to exist."

I'm SURE this isn't the first time you've heard an argument of this sort. How do I rebut (I don't believe the universe needed any supernatural help)? Any suggested links, too?

Thanks!

eh · 02-28-2002, 06:29 PM

Click on the 'search' link, and search the EOG forums for 'first cause'

You should be able to find some useful info. BTW: the energy in the universe will never be exhausted. Has this theist heard of energy conservation?

ken1burton · 03-01-2002, 02:34 PM

Big Bang? How about a Big Spin before the Big Bang so the Universe ends up Disk shape.

Evolution is disproved as far as life as we know it by what would have evolved second, And that is DEATH. Long before any life form could evolve all the needed systems to surive the first day.

Let alone all the time it would need to evolve a means of creating it's own food. (McDonalds had not yet opened for business.) Reproduction whould have to also get there before death. Simple egg division is what is used when we buy one egg, put it in the refrig and never need to get any more eggs, they just double by themselves.

Try this one. God might have Evolved. What makes up a Spiritual being? If we had that answer, we might be able to figure where the Creator came from. We live in a Creation.

Evolution is only possible with Scientist evolving from Monkeys, it is evident by the way they chase their tails.

Consider all the things a life form would need to survive, many complex systems are needed, and they are needed on day one.

Ken

hezekiah jones · 03-01-2002, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ken1burton:
Long before any life form could evolve all the needed systems to surive the first day.

Huh?

Silent Dave · 03-01-2002, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ken1burton:

Consider all the things a life form would need to survive, many complex systems are needed, and they are needed on day one.

Quite the contrary; the first life form on earth need have been no more complex than a simple self-replicating molecule.

What, exactly, is the scientific theory of creation?

Dave

Answerer · 03-01-2002, 05:54 PM

I don't know what actually cause the Big Bang but it was definately not God. If the theist say so, then ask him, Where was God during the Big Bang?

Jimmy Higgins · 03-01-2002, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Silent Dave:

What, exactly, is the scientific theory of creation?

I believe that was that man was created with clay. But god can do anything, so why even bother discussing it.

butswana · 03-02-2002, 04:05 AM

Where did you buy your fridge, Ken?
I had 8 eggs in the Whirlpool the other day. I boiled 4 of them. There were still only 4 there this morning.
I guess they weren't dividing. Maybe I need a Kenmore.

How about this, the event(s) that caused this univere to come into being, occured outside of this universe. Therefore, we will never be able to observe it(them).

[ March 02, 2002: Message edited by: butswana ]

Theophage · 03-02-2002, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ken1burton:
Big Bang? How about a Big Spin before the Big Bang so the Universe ends up Disk shape.
Ken

The universe is in a disk shape??? How big is it top to bottom versus from side to side?

Oh and Ken, stop drinking so heavily before posting...

optimist · 03-02-2002, 11:48 AM

"Our universe is linear, meaning it, and everything contained in it had a beginning, and will eventually be exhausted." and then 'eh' responded "the energy in the universe will never be exhausted. Has this theist heard of energy conservation?"

Kinda, the conservation of matter/energy tells us the matter and energy will never be destroyed. The universe's heat-death is when the energy will have all become heat, which is unusable for life. The energy that drives you heart, the stars, blackholes, the planets orbits, everything will degrade into heat. The energy won't be destroyed but it will become "unavailable energy" as it is called. The heat-death is when all the energy used for life and other things will just be heat. Heat energy cannot support any form of life. Maybe that is what the theist meant by "exhausted" maybe not, it is not meaningful to the point he is trying to make anyway. Moving on to what this is really about...

"What I find impossible to believe, that knowing the laws of our universe how this inanimate matter just came to exist."

First off, how did God just come into existence? Spontaneous creation from nothing is a paradox that plagues ANY creation theory. He might say "well god is the exception" but then why can you not say "well the universe is the exception." He might say "well God wasn't created because he is eternal" and you could say "the big bang was the creation of our universe from some pre-existing matter which had always existed."

Secondly, it is something COMPLETELY different to say "everything in the universe has a cause" then to say "the universe itself has a cause." Plus, determinism is wrong! Not everything has a cause. Electron paths are indeterministic, cause-less. I'll bet your theist friend is not a determinist anyway, so ask him about the contradiction about his belief that everything MUST have a cause and his belief in freewill (my assumption that he believes in freewill).

Third, it does not matter if he has trouble thinking the Big Bang came from nothing. That does not prove God. That means he doesn't know how the universe got started. Just because he rejects the scientific explanation, does not mean his explanation is correct. They might both be wrong. I hold the Big Bang to be true, but if it was disproven that does not mean I would believe God did it, it would mean I would no longer have any belief about how the universe began. If a theist asks you "well how do you think the universe started" the correct answer is NOT "the Big Bang." it is "What does that have to do with the truth or falsity of God? Maybe I don't believe anything about how the universe came into existence!"

Forth, things are pop-ing into existence EVEN today. Virtual particle pairs pop in and out of existence constantly. The conservation of matter / energy says the total energy must be zero, but as long as an equal amount of negative charge and positive charge are created, it is not violated. This is why blackholes evaporate. I suggest you tell him to read up on "virtual particle pairs." I am reading a book on it called "nothingness" by Genz, I haven't finished it so I won't recommend it yet, but so far it has been real good.

Here, check this site out -
<a href="http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae332.cfm" target="_blank">http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae332.cfm</a>

[ March 02, 2002: Message edited by: optimist ]

02-28-2002, 05:22 PM	#1
Hubzilla Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Honolulu, Hawaii Posts: 24	What started the Big Bang? I'm having a debate with a theist. Basically, he states that God directed the beginning: "I believe in evolution, or genetic mutation to be more exact. I believe in the big bang and expanding universe theories as well. But where the logic stops is how the matter and energy that make up our universe got to be. Our universe is linear, meaning it, and everything contained in it had a beginning, and will eventually be exhausted. What I find impossible to believe, that knowing the laws of our universe how this inanimate matter just came to exist." I'm SURE this isn't the first time you've heard an argument of this sort. How do I rebut (I don't believe the universe needed any supernatural help)? Any suggested links, too? Thanks!

03-02-2002, 04:05 AM	#8
butswana Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 1,804	Where did you buy your fridge, Ken? I had 8 eggs in the Whirlpool the other day. I boiled 4 of them. There were still only 4 there this morning. I guess they weren't dividing. Maybe I need a Kenmore. How about this, the event(s) that caused this univere to come into being, occured outside of this universe. Therefore, we will never be able to observe it(them). [ March 02, 2002: Message edited by: butswana ]</p>

03-02-2002, 11:48 AM	#10
optimist Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Depending on the week: Miami, Dallas, or Seattle Posts: 101	"Our universe is linear, meaning it, and everything contained in it had a beginning, and will eventually be exhausted." and then 'eh' responded "the energy in the universe will never be exhausted. Has this theist heard of energy conservation?" Kinda, the conservation of matter/energy tells us the matter and energy will never be destroyed. The universe's heat-death is when the energy will have all become heat, which is unusable for life. The energy that drives you heart, the stars, blackholes, the planets orbits, everything will degrade into heat. The energy won't be destroyed but it will become "unavailable energy" as it is called. The heat-death is when all the energy used for life and other things will just be heat. Heat energy cannot support any form of life. Maybe that is what the theist meant by "exhausted" maybe not, it is not meaningful to the point he is trying to make anyway. Moving on to what this is really about... "What I find impossible to believe, that knowing the laws of our universe how this inanimate matter just came to exist." First off, how did God just come into existence? Spontaneous creation from nothing is a paradox that plagues ANY creation theory. He might say "well god is the exception" but then why can you not say "well the universe is the exception." He might say "well God wasn't created because he is eternal" and you could say "the big bang was the creation of our universe from some pre-existing matter which had always existed." Secondly, it is something COMPLETELY different to say "everything in the universe has a cause" then to say "the universe itself has a cause." Plus, determinism is wrong! Not everything has a cause. Electron paths are indeterministic, cause-less. I'll bet your theist friend is not a determinist anyway, so ask him about the contradiction about his belief that everything MUST have a cause and his belief in freewill (my assumption that he believes in freewill). Third, it does not matter if he has trouble thinking the Big Bang came from nothing. That does not prove God. That means he doesn't know how the universe got started. Just because he rejects the scientific explanation, does not mean his explanation is correct. They might both be wrong. I hold the Big Bang to be true, but if it was disproven that does not mean I would believe God did it, it would mean I would no longer have any belief about how the universe began. If a theist asks you "well how do you think the universe started" the correct answer is NOT "the Big Bang." it is "What does that have to do with the truth or falsity of God? Maybe I don't believe anything about how the universe came into existence!" Forth, things are pop-ing into existence EVEN today. Virtual particle pairs pop in and out of existence constantly. The conservation of matter / energy says the total energy must be zero, but as long as an equal amount of negative charge and positive charge are created, it is not violated. This is why blackholes evaporate. I suggest you tell him to read up on "virtual particle pairs." I am reading a book on it called "nothingness" by Genz, I haven't finished it so I won't recommend it yet, but so far it has been real good. Here, check this site out - <a href="http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae332.cfm" target="_blank">http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae332.cfm</a> [ March 02, 2002: Message edited by: optimist ]</p>

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02-28-2002, 06:29 PM	#2
eh Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Canada Posts: 624	Click on the 'search' link, and search the EOG forums for 'first cause' You should be able to find some useful info. BTW: the energy in the universe will never be exhausted. Has this theist heard of energy conservation?

03-01-2002, 02:34 PM	#3
ken1burton Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Ilion, NY Posts: 10	Big Bang? How about a Big Spin before the Big Bang so the Universe ends up Disk shape. Evolution is disproved as far as life as we know it by what would have evolved second, And that is DEATH. Long before any life form could evolve all the needed systems to surive the first day. Let alone all the time it would need to evolve a means of creating it's own food. (McDonalds had not yet opened for business.) Reproduction whould have to also get there before death. Simple egg division is what is used when we buy one egg, put it in the refrig and never need to get any more eggs, they just double by themselves. Try this one. God might have Evolved. What makes up a Spiritual being? If we had that answer, we might be able to figure where the Creator came from. We live in a Creation. Evolution is only possible with Scientist evolving from Monkeys, it is evident by the way they chase their tails. Consider all the things a life form would need to survive, many complex systems are needed, and they are needed on day one. Ken

03-01-2002, 05:54 PM	#6
Answerer Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Singapore Posts: 3,956	I don't know what actually cause the Big Bang but it was definately not God. If the theist say so, then ask him, Where was God during the Big Bang?

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