rudolk

I'll start off by citing one reference to this here:

<a href="http://www.bostonphoenix.com/boston/news_features/other_stories/multipage/documents/02219639.htm" target="_blank">bostonphoenix</a>

I know this story has been posted a few times, so I'll quote the part I'm referring to:

</strong>

Now what caught my attention about this quote was that my dad had said the same thing. He had gone through the whole questioning of the existence of a god when he was my age, and now he thinks that spirituality is good. He seems to think that the founding fathers thought the same thing, and that was his defense when the "under God" issue was discussed at my house. Back to the point though.

I know it seems easy to him to be an atheist at my age (I'm currently 21). I haven't gone through any traumatic losses (he lost his father and brother in a short span) and I haven't been through any real hardships. I feel that these reasons are why he turned to the idea of a god, and this spirituality that he cites.

I can see that believing in such concepts can offer a crutch to lean on in difficult times, allowing someone in pain or grief to believe that everything's happening for a reason, that there's someone up there looking out for him, and that those who have passed on will be rewarded with everlasting paradise. I don't feel that I now, nor will I ever need this crutch. I see it as just that; something to lean on when we can't hold ourselves up. I see it as a sign of intellectual laziness and emotional infirmity. Sure it'd be easy for all of us to think there's a god who is the ultimate answer to all questions in the universe. A force so benevolent and forgiving that heaven will someday await us. It's just that though. It's an easy way out.

I know I'm just echoing the sentiments of most if not all on this board, but I think this group of spiritual but non-religious people make up most of the 14% of US residents that statistics show are secular. As it also says in the article, only .4% admit to being atheist. In my opinion, this "spiritual" demographic seems to be riding the fence. They don't want to deny the existence of a god just in case their eternal salvation depends on it, but they don' want to go through the time consuming rigors and intelligence insulting dogma that formal religion offers. I find this application of Pascal's wager a bit insulting.

OK now to the point: I'd like to know how many here have been tempted (sorry for the ironic choice of words) to become, as the author of this column is, a spiritual person?

Also, does anyone share my view that these spiritual people practice a wishy-washy sort of belief? I agree that belief in god can, in theory, be used for good, in that it keeps those who believe in it adhered to its moral conduct (the ten commandments for example). But if you already denounce "beliefs" as this author has, and you've determined that you don't need a book or a guy in a collar to tell you what's right and wrong, what's the point in believing in a god at all?


Thanks,
Kurt

Edit: Format link - CF

[ August 01, 2002: Message edited by: crazyfingers ]</p>

bonduca

Off to Misc. Religion...

ansarthemystic

Whether or not the thing you said about needing a cruch and emotional infirmity and intellectual laziness is true, you don't seem to realize that religion, belief in god, and spirituality ARE separate. Maybe the holy book pushers have given us the impression that religion and belief in god go hand in hand. They don't! I am sure people who have meditated or have done Tai-Chi can attest to this. Just because someone calls these experiences spiritual is irrelevant. They are done a-religiously, and do not require a belief in a god. What about Buddhism?

peace and blessings




Edit format link -CF

[ August 01, 2002: Message edited by: crazyfingers ]</p>

rudolk

You're right I didn't explore that possibility. Thanks for informing me that the three aren't necessarily the same. So I guess one's definition of spirituality is really the question that needs to be answered. This probably goes hand in hand with resons for belief in and definition of a soul. I haven't been exposed to anything like this so far. Any takers?

philechat

Religion: An organized belief system with theology, rites, followers and clerics. Religions can be monotheistic, polytheistic, pantheistic, or atheistic.

Belief in God: A person who believes in the existence of supernatural being(s)--usually refers to monotheists and polytheists. Deists, for example, tend to believe in God without belonging to any specific religions.

Spirituality: Too vague to be defined. Usually means a concern with ideas which are not directly related to material or social gain. I do not view the term "spirituality" negatively, but it has been abused by clerics and saccharine self-help writers that many atheists (me included) sometimes cringe by instinct the mention of the term.

[ August 01, 2002: Message edited by: philechat ]</p>

Perchance

As other people have already mentioned ( ) I find spirituality to be so vague a term that it's not very helpful. Some people seem to define it as being happy, or as having qualities that I think a lot of people have, whether they're "spiritual" or not: integrity, civility, pride (although the pc name for this is now "self-esteem"), dignity, and so on.

Personally, I think that people fall back on this word precisely because it's so vague. We don't have words that are separate from "soul" and "heart" to talk about qualities like this, other than perhaps "character." (I personally like "spirit" in the sense of "high-spirited," but I appreciate that to most people this has a religious definition). So someone who is frustrated by the lack of words to describe the things they want to talk about might well fall back on "spirituality."

I do admit that I have to laugh when people move past talking about spirituality to "spiritual needs" or "spiritual plane," "spiritual victory" or "spiritual conflict." I don't think that anyone can prove someone has a need for ceremony, religious belief, or the traditional trappings of religion, that a spiritual plane exists, or that there are victories and conflicts that are fought solely in the realm of the "spiritual." There might be conflicts of values and honor, but again, we don't seem to have the words for them.

Perhaps now that we're beginning to think about ways to describe experiences of character and integrity outside religion- something that to a large extent was impossible before the twentieth century- we'll think up new words.

Dashing herself against the borders of English once again,

-Perchance.

philechat

The Ancient Greeks have a word that could describe ideals of human character and integrity without refering to religion--Arete. It is usually translated to "virtue" in English, and different philosophical schools in Ancient Greece look in different directions concerning the attainment of Arete.

It seems like a less theology-polluted word than "spirituality" in my opinion.

[ August 01, 2002: Message edited by: philechat ]</p>

Perchance

Hi philechat,

Yes, I've heard of Arete. Unfortunately, the class in which I heard it (Latin) never entered into a discussion of just what it was- either ideally or linguistically. And "virtue" also has a religious connotation, or a connection to the soul, in many discussions; there seems to be an idea that virtues come from outside rather than inside a human being, and imply an objective moral standard to the universe, something I don't believe exists.

But it probably would make more sense than "spirituality." Now if people would just stop trying to convince me that I have "spiritual needs"...

-Perchance.

rudolk

Yeah spirituality seems like a bunch of mystical nonsense to me. I don't even know which angle to attack it from, seeing as everyone is just going to define it differently. Arguing against spirituality and the existence of a soul seems like trying to run up a mountain of sand.

Laera

My liberal xian mother has been using the "people all have a spiritual side you can't ignore" plea on me to return to her belief system. I feel I know the way SHE uses the word, but it makes for confusing conversation with anyone else on the matter that there are so many different connotations and definitions attached to the word "spiritual."

She uses it as a scapegoat to explain why "reason and rational thinking aren't enough to recognize god" (iow, the requirement of faith to arrive at belief) In her world, there are things you approach "rationally" and things you approach "spiritually," ne'er the twain shall meet.

I'm grateful for her separation approach - it allowed me to learn critical thinking in everything as long as I didn't apply it to religion. But now that I've tried applying it there, "spirituality" just seems silly and self-delusional.

Originally posted by rudolk:
My mother can be a very pursuasive speaker, and I admit that in conversations with her on this point I have begun to wonder if I *am* missing something - that "spiritual" side. I've come to realize, though, that there's really no way to tell... She tells me to "ask the Holy Spirit to guide me to the understanding I must desire" (iow, convince myself) but playing mind games with myself is where I draw the line. If I don't miss it, I have no reason to look for something that has just as much chance of existing as not.

Ditto for god.

Thoughts?